Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[KevinB]

Moreso on the topic of making the best of what we have. Given the things a TAPV can do vs. the things a TAPV can't do, the RCAC's desire to go Cavalry, and the potential to have 2 Bde's tasked primarily with COIN/peacekeeping/QRF, it seems to me that the question becomes whether or not LAV mounted mech battalions outside of 1 CMBG make sense, and I think the answer is no.

Whether it's 3 combined arms battalions or 1 tank regiment + 2 mech Bn's, the maneuver units of 1CMBG will eat up ~2 battalion sets of LAV's. Three more sets + LRSS has all three armoured regiments mounted as LAV based cavalry (strap on ATGM's and UAV's as needed, dismount scout and tank hunter teams). 6th set pre-positioned to Europe with a squadron worth of tanks to have a flyover combined arms BG. RCR and 22 go light with TAPV's assigned for COIN/convoy escort/ protected mobility as needed for non-peer fight taskings .

Again I wonder who's crack pipe thinks that Wheeled vehicles for the Infantry are a good match for Tracked Tanks...

 

[dangerboy]

Do not do this. It is not DRDCs job. R&D is. They get stuck doing shit like this and produce long, off target reports too late.
Use LETE for this. Oh wait. Army grown ups don't care enough about technical stuff to do anything serious about fixing short comings in a fast and good manner. They were given the opportunity to take two out of three options and chose cheap.

Unfortunately LETE was closed down, I think the mid-1990s. We have CATEU (Canadian Army Trials and Evaluation Unit) now but I don't know if they have the same capabilities as LETE (I am not knowledgable on LETE). But I agree it should not be given to DRDC, they are best used for future capabilities research.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Yeah, I missed the sarcasm emoji for the LETE comment. The Trial and Error unit could probably do a good job but they are not equipped for automotive and electromech testing like LETE was.
QETE might be able do some work, again not set up for automotive work.

 

[McG]

Unfortunately LETE was closed down, I think the mid-1990s. We have CATEU (Canadian Army Trials and Evaluation Unit) now but I don't know if they have the same capabilities as LETE (I am not knowledgable on LETE). But I agree it should not be given to DRDC, they are best used for future capabilities research.

I think LESC is marketing themselves as being capable of doing some of this design improvement and technical evaluation stuff, but don’t think they are anywhere near the resources that LETE had.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Again I wonder who's crack pipe thinks that Wheeled vehicles for the Infantry are a good match for Tracked Tanks...

The Department of ‘Meh.. Good Enough’?

 

[GK .Dundas]

Again I wonder who's crack pipe thinks that Wheeled vehicles for the Infantry are a good match for Tracked Tanks...

That was just one of the reasons I even brought up the M 113 .

 

[FJAG]

Again I wonder who's crack pipe thinks that Wheeled vehicles for the Infantry are a good match for Tracked Tanks...

When they were bought the C2 Leopard tanks were heading to the scrap pile. Tanks became an Afghanistan imperative. At that point it became a matter of do the best you can with what you have.

I think that you and I are in the minority on this forum (and probably in the Canadian Army) that think that tracked tanks are best supported by tracked IFVs.

I'll accept LAVs working with tanks only so long as is necessary to define a project looking for a tracked IFV.

That was just one of the reasons I even brought up the M 113 .

Sometimes when I ponder the good use that was made of the TLAVs a decade and a half ago, I wonder if there is still life left in them.

 

[Kirkhill]

When they were bought the C2 Leopard tanks were heading to the scrap pile. Tanks became an Afghanistan imperative. At that point it became a matter of do the best you can with what you have.

I think that you and I are in the minority on this forum (and probably in the Canadian Army) that think that tracked tanks are best supported by tracked IFVs.

I'll accept LAVs working with tanks only so long as is necessary to define a project looking for a tracked IFV.


Sometimes when I ponder the good use that was made of the TLAVs a decade and a half ago, I wonder if there is still life left in them.

For the record I am fine with tracks supporting tracks. If tanks are going to support wheels then the crews need their own tank transporters to keep up with the wheels on the highways.

Leos and CV90s and even M109s sound right if you are having a proper Heavy Brigade - but if that then you better get a really fast Big Honking Ship.

The same ship can haul the LAV brigade as well - complete with wheeled SPHs, LRPFs and GBAD.

As to the light battalions/battle groups/brigades ... I've run out of puff.

 

[Kirkhill]

For sh*ts and grins I compared the TAPV to the M1117 ASV

		TAPV		ASV
Length	m	6.81​		6​
Width	m	2.75​		2.6​
Height-Hull	m	2.39​		2.215​
Height - OA	m	3.21​		2.6​
Height - Turret	m	0.82​		0.385​
Clearance	m	0.635​		0.46​
Weight	kg	18,500​		13,400​
Tires		16.00 R20 XZL	14.00 R20XZL
RWS/Turret		Off Centre Right Front	Dead Centre
5 Tonnes heavier
Sitting 6 inches higher
Standing 2 feet taller
Turret off center right front instead of Dead Center
Tires rated for 55 mph (89 km/h) not 110 km/h

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile.... the Brits

The Defence Secretary would not “speculate” on the parts of the Armed Forces that would grow as a result of the uplift, saying “we need to look at the lessons” of Ukraine.

He added: “It’s highly likely we will grow the Army but it might not be the places that your armchair generals want you to, because what we desperately need is to, for example, invest in our ISR [Intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance] capability.

“People will always talk about the regiments – ‘will you bring back the Rifles’, or whatever it is. We are more likely to be bringing about artillery batteries and more signals intelligence and more electric warfare, and certainly counter-UAV capabilities. If we can’t bring down those little drones, we are very vulnerable, no matter who you are.”

In his first interview since Ms Truss entered Downing Street earlier this month, Mr Wallace disclosed that the Prime Minister had made clear that enacting her campaign pledge to increase defence spending to 3 per cent of GDP would be a priority for the Government.

“She said from day one, ‘be under no illusion, I mean it,’” Mr Wallace said. “It’s one of her clear priorities as a Prime Minister that we are going to invest and spend the money.” He said the pledge amounted to an annual defence budget of about £100 billion by 2030 - an increase of £52 billion on the current sum.

Armed Forces to grow thanks to £52bn spending boost

Ben Wallace tells The Telegraph that after decades of cuts, the military will increase in size as Liz Truss responds to Russian aggression

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[daftandbarmy]

Meanwhile.... the Brits

Armed Forces to grow thanks to £52bn spending boost

Ben Wallace tells The Telegraph that after decades of cuts, the military will increase in size as Liz Truss responds to Russian aggression

www.telegraph.co.uk

And, of course, the first new unit is a Guards Battalion dedicated to ceremonial duties.

Second Battalion Irish Guards reactivated after 75 years

The battalion, which was disbanded in 1947, will see new soldiers hone their "discipline and skills" by performing ceremonial duties.

www.forces.net

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Discipline and skills"...just give them the time and address of the monthly Dungeon Night meeting and they will learn discipline, and some skills.

 

[Kirkhill]

New videos from Battle Order - Infantry Support Future and HIMARS

Future Weapons for U.S. Army Infantry?

New video on platforms being looked at by the army. 1. An "enhanced 81mm" with the range of a 120mm mounted on an Infantry Squad Vehicle for airborne/air assault 2. An XM25 type thing with dialable direct fire airburst grenades (the Precision Grenadier System or PGS) 3. And a combined...

www.battleorder.org

Organization of U.S. Missile Arty Batteries (HIMARS + MLRS)

A new detailed look at the organization and equipment of U.S. Army and Marine Missile Artillery Batteries, with details on both M142 HIMARS and M270 MLRS units.

www.battleorder.org

Tactical Guide to HIMARS/MLRS Missile Artillery

New video on HIMARS and MLRS, including a platform overview; the capabilities and types of munitions; how they're employed organizationally in the US Army, US Marine Corps, British Army, and Japanese GSDF; notes on Ukraine; tactics on the ground; and limitations.

www.battleorder.org

Keep in mind the USMC MEU, dealing with long ranges, is swapping its cannons for HIMARs.

 

[McG]

Keep in mind the USMC MEU, dealing with long ranges, is swapping its cannons for HIMARs.

They are also planning to fight a war across island chains, which is a substantially different problem set that fighting across any continent.

 

[daftandbarmy]

They are also planning to fight a war across island chains, which is a substantially different problem set that fighting across any continent.

For 'Islands' think 'Unsinkable aircraft carriers'....

US Scrambling to Check Growing Chinese Influence in Pacific Islands​

Maintaining Strong Ties with Pacific Islands

The Federated States of Micronesia (FSM), the Republic of Palau, and the Republic of the Marshall Islands (RMI)—collectively known as the Freely Associated States (FAS)—entered a Compact in the late 1980s with the US, promising to provide security and defense in exchange of freely accessing the surrounding waters of these sovereign states. Throughout the next decade, these agreements didn’t only involve transactional relationships but also weaved both societal and cultural ties that bolstered “economic, education, and interpersonal linkages,” which eventually became the heart of the Compact. However, the agreement is set to expire in 2023 and 2024, and if not renegotiated, the report warned that FAS could look to China for funding and support.

US Scrambling to Check Growing Chinese Influence in Pacific Islands

Experts warn Washington about China's geopolitical expansion into the Pacific Islands, saying it could pose a challenge to US interests.

sofrep.com

 

[Kirkhill]

They are also planning to fight a war across island chains, which is a substantially different problem set that fighting across any continent.

But is it different to fighting across 7000 km of a continent with widely dispersed settlements poorly connected by roads?

 

[WestIsle]

And, of course, the first new unit is a Guards Battalion dedicated to ceremonial duties.

Second Battalion Irish Guards reactivated after 75 years

The battalion, which was disbanded in 1947, will see new soldiers hone their "discipline and skills" by performing ceremonial duties.

www.forces.net

It would appear that this is more so the incremental companies associating with 2nd battalion despite it not being a full establishment. This is due to the 1st battalion being a SFA unit which requires far fewer troops then a regular battalion.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It would appear that this is more so the incremental companies associating with 2nd battalion despite it not being a full establishment. This is due to the 1st battalion being a SFA unit which requires far fewer troops then a regular battalion.

Guards breed like rabitts... it's best to keep a jaundiced eye on them, especially since the Queen's Funeral

 

[Kirkhill]

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles – drones – have made the tank obsolete, we are told. We are on the brink of nuclear weapons being used in Europe. And information and cyber warfare have fundamentally changed the nature of conflict. All of these assertions have elements of truth in them, which is why they get repeated.

But they are far from the whole story.

The reality is that all of these things – and more – are changes of degree. They are changes of mode in the manner of prosecution of war. But they are not changes to the substance of warfare. The nature of war has not changed since man fought as bands of hunter-gatherers on the African savannah. It is still – primarily and fundamentally – a deeply psychological phenomenon. It is still a contest between evolved human brains.

The same dynamics of advance, retreat, feint, ruse, confidence and fear decide the outcomes of battles, and of wars. The physicality of war - the bombs, bullets and bayonets - are merely there to affect your enemy's state of mind, as was illustrated so clearly two weeks ago when Ukraine’s recapture of Russian-occupied territory prompted many frightened Russian soldiers to surrender or flee their positions.

This fundamental psychological truth about warfare tells us some other things as well. It tells us that strategy – how you change your enemy’s psychology and make them do what you want – is supreme. It also tells us that logistics – your resources or tools for the job – are of crucial importance. And it tells us that morale – that ancient intangible of camaraderie and esprit de corps – is a battle winner.

The side that has these three things right – strategy, logistics and morale – will win the war. And this was as true in the Neolithic Period as it is in the new millennium.

Strategy, logistics and morale: Why the fundamentals of war haven’t changed​

The way to destroy an enemy hasn't altered since we fought as bands of hunter-gatherers on the African savannah – and Ukraine proves it

ByMike Martin 25 September 2022 • 7:00am

Strategy, logistics and morale: Why the fundamentals of war haven’t changed

The way to destroy an enemy hasn't altered since we fought as bands of hunter-gatherers on the African savannah – and Ukraine proves it

www.telegraph.co.uk

So what force structure can we sustain that will have the greatest impact on an enemy's morale?

 

[GK .Dundas]

As near as I can tell we've been debating the organizational set of a light armour/ cavalry regiment / squadron for damned near 50-60 years.
That has to a record in indecisiveness even for us.