Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[Infanteer]

@Kirkhill the 11th isn’t fully filled out yet.
It’s still missing an Inf Bde.

The 82nd is a better example of an Airborne Div.
- this is a 2021 chart, I have not found a more updated one.

Nothing says a Division needs three brigades. 11 Abn Div isn't the only US Div with 2x Bdes.

 

[FJAG]

@FJAG any actual increase to TacHel needs to come at the expense of Army PY’s, as the RCAF won’t alter it themselves.

I'd give up a recce squadron and a gun battery of RegF PYs for an attack helicopter squadron or a decent UCAV squadron.

 

[Kirkhill]

@FJAG any actual increase to TacHel needs to come at the expense of Army PY’s, as the RCAF won’t alter it themselves.


@Kirkhill the 11th isn’t fully filled out yet.
It’s still missing an Inf Bde.

The 82nd is a better example of an Airborne Div.
- this is a 2021 chart, I have not found a more updated one.
View attachment 74287

Kevin, you have had small divisions and separate brigades for a long time.

As Infanteer noted - (sorry. I react as I read).

 

[KevinB]

Nothing says a Division needs three brigades. 11 Abn Div isn't the only US Div with 2x Bdes.

Kevin, you have had small divisions and separate brigades for a long time.

As Infanteer noted - (sorry. I react as I read).

I don't disagree - but if you are only having 1 Div , I'd opt for 3 Bde in it. -- unless you want to dedicate a Abn Bde to 11th ABN.

I'd give up a recce squadron and a gun battery of RegF PYs for an attack helicopter squadron or a decent UCAV squadron.

You really should not need to though.

 

[Kirkhill]

A Canadian 2 Brigade Division​

​

4th Canadian (Armoured) Division[edit]​

The 4th Canadian (Armoured) Division was created during World War II by the conversion of the 4th Canadian Infantry Division at the beginning of 1942 in Canada. The division proceeded overseas in 1942, with its two main convoys reaching the United Kingdom in August and October.

The division spent almost two years training in the United Kingdom before crossing to Normandy in July 1944. In the United Kingdom, it participated in war games together with the Polish 1st Armoured Division, and later fought in France, the Low Countries, and Germany; both divisions followed very close paths. The division participated in the later stages of the Battle of Normandy at the Falaise Pocket, the advance from Normandy and spent almost two months engaged at the Breskens Pocket as well as Operation Pheasant. It wintered in the Netherlands and took part in the final advance across northern Germany.

Formation[edit]​

1944–1945

4th Canadian Armoured Brigade

• 21st Armoured Regiment (The Governor General's Foot Guards)
• 22nd Armoured Regiment (The Canadian Grenadier Guards)
• 28th Armoured Regiment (The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own))
• The Lake Superior Regiment (Motor)

Formation sign used to identify vehicles of the 4th Canadian (Armoured) Division.
10th Canadian Infantry Brigade

• 10th Independent Machine Gun Company (The New Brunswick Rangers)[7] [8] [9]
• The Lincoln and Welland Regiment
• The Algonquin Regiment
• The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada (Princess Louise's)
• 10 Canadian Infantry Brigade Ground Defence Platoon (Lorne Scots)

Other units

• 29th Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (The South Alberta Regiment)
• "D" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), Canadian Armoured Corps
• 15th Field Regiment, RCA
• 23rd Field Regiment, RCA
• 5th Anti-tank Regiment, RCA
• 8th Light Anti-aircraft Regiment, RCA
• 4th Canadian Armoured Division Engineers
  • 8th Field Squadron, RCE
  • 9th Field Squadron, RCE
  • 6th Field Park Squadron, RCE
  • 4th Canadian Armoured Division Bridge Troop, RCE
  • No. 46 Light Aid Detachment, RCEME
• 4th Canadian Armoured Divisional Signals, R.C. Sigs
• No. 4 Defence and Employment Platoon (Lorne Scots)
• 12 Light Field Ambulance, RCAMC[10]
• No. 8 Provost Company, Canadian Provost Corps

In 1939, the armoured division comprised 9,442 men all ranks, this increased to 14,964 men all ranks by 1944;[45] however, of this latter figure, the division had a combat strength of around 7,000 men with only 3,400 of these men being in the division's nine rifle companies

Wiki math appears to be a bit off - by my calcs there were 12 motor rifle companies in the division with about 2100 rifles.

The Canadian Motor Battalion 1943-1945

 

[KevinB]

Armored formations are always lighter in troops than Infantry ones due to the manning of tanks versus rifles.
While I agree a Div can hold 2 Maneuver Bde's, I still like ones with 3 to give more depth, and a reserve.

 

[Infanteer]

I've read documents and reports that indicate two is easier to control, and actually more effective. A Division doesn't need an entire brigade for reserve, it needs a Bn max, if not a Cbt Tm.

 

[Kirkhill]

I've read documents and reports that indicate two is easier to control, and actually more effective. A Division doesn't need an entire brigade for reserve, it needs a Bn max, if not a Cbt Tm.

That Canadian Armoured Div organization seems to me to be the exemplar of Bite and Hold tactics.

The Tank Brigade Bites with its own motor rifles and the Armoured Delivery Squadron in support, together with the Div Arty. The Infantry Brigade Holds together with the Machine Gun Company, the Anti-Tank and Anti-Air Regiments. Div Recce on screen.

It is also interesting that the Infantry Battalions swapped out a Rifle Coy for additional anti-tank and machine gun platoons.

Support Company (7 Officers, 190 men), comprised of;

Company HQ (2 Officers, 23 men) * increased by 1 man, October 1944

Three Anti-tank Platoons, each (1 Officer, 37 men)

Two Machine Gun Platoons, each (1 Officer, 28 men)

Three Motors Companies (7 Officers, 168 men), each comprised of;

Company HQ (2 Officers, 37 men)

Scout Platoon (2 Officers, 41 men)

Three Motor Platoons, each comprised of;

Platoon HQ (1 Officer, 6 men)

Three Motor Sections, each comprised of 8 men

Machine Gun Platoon - the Motor Battalion enjoyed a luxury denied the Infantry in that they carried their own Vickers medium machine guns. Each platoon required eight Universal Carriers to transport the four weapons and the Vickers could be fired from the carrier itself. A PIAT was provided for anti-tank defence.

Anti-tank Platoon – was a slimmed down version of the Infantry unit. The platoon served four 6-pdr guns, each with two T16 Carriers plus a Bren and 2-inch mortar. Platoon HQ added a Universal Carrier, trucks and motorcycles.

Interesting that each rifle company had its own large Scout Platoon.

 

[Infanteer]

That Canadian Armoured Div organization seems to me to be the exemplar of Bite and Hold tactics.

Not quite, as far as I understand it.

Infantry Divisions breach, and Armoured Divisions would go through to exploit. So, Inf Div bites, Armd Bde pushes through, and Armd Bde Inf holds once limit of exploitation reached. Corps Bite and Hold.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not quite, as far as I understand it.

Infantry Divisions breach, and Armoured Divisions would go through to exploit. So, Inf Div bites, Armd Bde pushes through, and Armd Bde Inf holds once limit of exploitation reached. Corps Bite and Hold.

OK. I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[FJAG]

If I remember correctly there were significant differences in American armored and infantry divisions in WW2.

Infantry divisions held three infantry regiments of three battalions each plus a divisional artillery of four battalions.

An armored division was divided into three combat commands - CC A held three tank battalions, CC B held three mechanized infantry battalions and CC R held three self propelled arty battalions.

There were of course other elements in each but those were the core components.

 

[Infanteer]

An armored division was divided into three combat commands - CC A held three tank battalions, CC B held three mechanized infantry battalions and CC R held three self propelled arty battalions.

Those CCs held neither. It was really CC A and B that mixed and matched the battalions. CC R was usually just a holding formation.

Another example of a two-"bde" Div that was a successful design.

 

[Kirkhill]

If I remember correctly there were significant differences in American armored and infantry divisions in WW2.

Infantry divisions held three infantry regiments of three battalions each plus a divisional artillery of four battalions.

An armored division was divided into three combat commands - CC A held three tank battalions, CC B held three mechanized infantry battalions and CC R held three self propelled arty battalions.

There were of course other elements in each but those were the core components.

That sounds a lot like the British-Canadian Division - only the Combat Commands were called Brigades.

 

[Infanteer]

That sounds a lot like the British-Canadian Division - only the Combat Commands were called Brigades.

...and a late war Panzer Division generally fought two Kampfgruppe built off its Panzer Regiment and its Infantry Regiment. You seeing a trend here?

 

[Kirkhill]

...and a late war Panzer Division generally fought two Kampfgruppe built off its Panzer Regiment and its Infantry Regiment. You seeing a trend here?

Mebbe so....

 

[FJAG]

So all we need to do is turn 80 some odd tanks into three battalions.

How do people feel about Russian style 10-tank companies?

 

[Kirkhill]

So does that mean that we could contemplate a Functional Canadian Division with three small brigades (2 battalions and cavalry unit), together with Divisional Support Troops, capable of detaching a battle group, or even an independent brigade, and still leave a working 2 Brigade Division?

And keep it within the existing pay packet of the CAF?

 

[GR66]

So an updated version that also tries to standardize with US force structures would be an ABCT (Leopards & LAVs for now), a SBCT (LAVs) and an Artillery Brigade.

That could leave you with either a Light IBCT that could possibly plug into the 11th Airborne Division as it's 3rd Maneuver Brigade or could act as a base for a Reserve Light Infantry Division (with 1 x Reg Force Battalion per IBCT).

 

[Kirkhill]

So all we need to do is turn 80 some odd tanks into three battalions.

How do people feel about Russian style 10-tank companies?

Pourquoi pas? Or Swedish Pansar Coys in Swedish Pansar Battalions?

1 Battalion - 2x 11 MBT = 22, 34x IFV, 4x AA, 8x Mor.

There are enough tanks for 3 Swedish style CA Battalions - with LAVs standing in for IFVs.

Or, effectively, a large MBT squadron with 2x LAV companies.

 

[GR66]

Pourquoi pas? Or Swedish Pansar Coys in Swedish Pansar Battalions?

1 Battalion - 2x 11 MBT = 22, 34x IFV, 4x AA, 8x Mor.

There are enough tanks for 3 Swedish style CA Battalions - with LAVs standing in for IFVs.

Or, effectively, a large MBT squadron with 2x LAV companies.

There are 73 x tanks in the three maneuver Battalions of a US ABCT. We technically have enough for that but would have to do a "Canadianized" (bastardized) Cavalry Squadron until such time as we get more tanks.