Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[KevinB]

If I have to go through Textron to replace the Cummins engine or the Allison transmission when the local shop is 3000km away that makes no sense to me when we have shops locally with the training, expierance and know how to fix replace and repair. Those companies can provide services/ products overseas if required in short notice.

Welcome to government contracts.
It makes sense on the larger scale.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Calgary Highlanders had 7 of them for at least a few years.

I'm fairly sure that Rick would recognize the difference between the Grizzlies we had and the Bisons. I'm also fairly sure that he would have known what was on the Calg Highrs charge sheet.

Airghardt, Rick!

 

[Kirkhill]

I get that - but I tend to think Textron is not going to like anyone cutting out their profit margin.
They are also big enough to ensure that they can crush anyone who tries.


I totally get you on wanting to solve the issue.
The problem is when you solve the issue locally - outside the system as it where - that the system doesn't show all of its warts.
The fact that the CAF has some of the weirdest costing structures for systems, and cannot get enough parts for those systems should be a flashing light.
Can the local method work for domestic (and especially PRes units) absolutely - but it should not need to, and IMHO doing it that way is actually larger disservice to the CAF, as the system doesn't learn when it is fixed from outside

Of course a Military that actually planned in advance would have conducted replacement programs for most of the vehicle fleets years ago.
Quite frankly the continued Pork Barreling to certain "preferred" organizations on inferior to less capable products should be called to account.

This situation is not unrelated to the Ukrainians not be able to get ahold of a useful fleet or Leos (1 or 2) or F16s.

National committees have buggered up standard solutions to the extent that there is little standardization to take advantage of. Even simple stuff like 30mm, 105mm and 155mm ammunition is nationally modified to the extent that some rounds can only be fired from national guns.

NATO standardization is hard. On the other hand Ford Focus, Ford Ranger, Toyota Hilux and Mercedes GWagens can be found all over the world in their millions.

 

[markppcli]

Thanks for this.

So elaborating on post 6282, scaling US Heavy Division structure to Canadian Bde's, making use of what we have.
80 tanks
18 Coy's worth of LAV's
4 (theoretical) Bn sets of TAPV's.

Adopt US pattern tank coy's (14) over our squadrons, US style mechanized CAB's (1 tank, 2 mech coy's) over our Mech battalions.

46 Tanks in Canada shared for training 6x (2 per RegF Armoured Regiment) 14 tank coy's- use sim's, TAPV's as tank trainers, etc as necessary
12 Lav coy's = 6x 2 Coy CAB's
1 LAV Coy + 66 LAV Recce = 4 Cav Squadron sets (one per RegF regiment)

Organize the 3 CMBG's as 2x Leo+Lav CAB + one TAPV Bn.
2x Full CAB sets + spares (34 tanks, 5 Coy sets of LAV's) + one Bn set of TAPV's + one cav squadron pre-positioned in Latvia
Continue with 3 stage MRP, each CAB spends 6 months of their committed year in Latvia, each TAPV bn flies over once every 3 years to join Bde level REFORGER style exercise.

Would need the ATGM and SHORAD UOR's expanded, and something similar to gain some SP155's.

LIB's chopped from the CMBG's to be organized into one single (geographically spread out) Light/Jaeger Bde.

I would probably see something more along the lines of:

1 CBG (Mechanized)

• 1 PPCLI (2 x Regular 1x Reserve Coy)
• 2 PPCLI (2x Regular 1x Reservist Coy)
• The British Columbia Regiment (all BC based reservists
  • 3 x Rifle Company
  • TAPV mobility Squadron
• LdSH
  • 2 x Tank Sqn 14 each
  • 1 x Recce Sqn
• Armoured Replacement Regiment
  • SALH (Tanks Crew)
  • FGH (Tank Crew)
  • SASKD LRSS Crews
• 1 CER
• 1 RCHA
  • 2 x Gun Bty
  • STA
  • OP Bty

5 CBG (Mechanized)

• 1 R22R (2 x Regular 1x Reserve Coy)
• 2 RCR (2 x Regular 1x Reserve Coy)
• 1 Fusiliers du Quebec (reserve)
  • 3x Rifle Coy
  • 1 x TAPV Sqn
• RCDs
  • 2 x Tank Sqn 14 each
  • 1 x Recce Sqn
• Armoured Replacement Regiment
  • Canadian Hussars, 8th and Royal (2x Sqns Tank crews)
  • Halifax Rifles (LRSS Crews)
• 5 CER
• 5 RALC
  • 2 x Ceasar Bty (2x4 gun troops augmented by 1 reserve tp each)
  • STA
  • OP Bty

2 CBG

• 3 RCR (3x reg Coy)
• 3 R22R (3 x reg Coy)
• 1 RCR (3 x reg Coy)
• 12 RBC
  • 3 x LRSS Sqn (light Cav would be another option)
• QOR (reserve)
• 2 CER
• 2 RCHA
  • 3 x 8 M777 Bty (each assigned 1 x 4 Gun reserve Tp)
  • OP Bty
  • STA Tp

Outside of that I see the reserves having another Bde total massing essentially “the rest.” Frankly I don’t know how much more is realistic, and I’ve aimed at having decent populations to supply those Reserve Bns in the CBGs (BC, Toronto, Montreal + Quebec City).

 

[markppcli]

I'm fairly sure that Rick would recognize the difference between the Grizzlies we had and the Bisons. I'm also fairly sure that he would have known what was on the Calg Highrs charge sheet.

Airghardt, Rick!

I’ll take two sources over one. Given it seems no one else has ever heard of any reserve unit having Bisons.

I'm good with the RCAC reservists manning them as well. In some ways it makes more sense than the Service Battalion. Leave the softsided vehicles to the Service Battalions and simplify echelon management?



I like it. As I suggested though, it might be worth returning the vehicles back to the factory for an A1 modification now that the CAF has had a chance to play with them and better understand how they might be used given their limitations.




A good question. Bisons were purchased after I released. I understood them to have been purchased for the reserves as utility boxes on wheels. Wasn't it basically the USMC's LAV-L logistics vehicle which was also used for Mortar Carriers and MRTs?



Recognizing that a unit on wheels is going to move to get out of harms way when it can, and into harms way when it wants I was wondering what would happen if an enemy force armed with Javelins and 81mm mortars were to engage a Square Combat Team at Wainwright.

Instead of putting the opfor in the centre of the circle and allowing the Cbt Tm to engage a point target I was wondering what it looked like if the opfor were manoeuvering around the perimeter - dismounted and supported by light vehicles.

It looked to me as if the only "safe area" for the LAV/Leo Cbt Tm would be a tight area on the open ridge in the middle of Wainwright.

Based on that I wonder if Suffield isn't now a better place for even a Cbt Team to exercise? Gagetown's jungle and swamps present a different set of challenges.

Is Wainwright still the right place for mounted training? Or are Suffield and Shilo more appropriate?

I still don’t understand what you’re trying to get at. Like what you’ve said is essentially if you we surrounded by X Enemy at Y positions you’d only be able to be in position Z. Which is frankly more than a little weird. That’s really not how we train, and I’m sure I could do the same thing with a map of anywhere. Wainwright offers a good amount of space, and a variety of terrain both of which are important. We actually expect people do be able to fight their vehicles / sections / platoons / companies / ect in more than just wide open spaces.

 

[markppcli]

Those companies can provide services/ products overseas if required in short notice.

You’re going to send Finning out to the middle of Panjwai to fix a broken LAV?

 

[GR66]

This situation is not unrelated to the Ukrainians not be able to get ahold of a useful fleet or Leos (1 or 2) or F16s.

National committees have buggered up standard solutions to the extent that there is little standardization to take advantage of. Even simple stuff like 30mm, 105mm and 155mm ammunition is nationally modified to the extent that some rounds can only be fired from national guns.

NATO standardization is hard. On the other hand Ford Focus, Ford Ranger, Toyota Hilux and Mercedes GWagens can be found all over the world in their millions.

Or standardize with the fleet of the World's largest user/producer of Western military vehicles...

 

[childs56]

You’re going to send Finning out to the middle of Panjwai to fix a broken LAV?

No but finning can send the engine and transmission in pre packaged set up. Hope our Mechanics can figure it out. Or even a few of the Soldiers if we're short on Mechanics.
Or your troops are going to tow the thing where it can get fixed.

 

[Kirkhill]

I’ll take two sources over one. Given it seems no one else has ever heard of any reserve unit having Bisons.



I still don’t understand what you’re trying to get at. Like what you’ve said is essentially if you we surrounded by X Enemy at Y positions you’d only be able to be in position Z. Which is frankly more than a little weird. That’s really not how we train, and I’m sure I could do the same thing with a map of anywhere. Wainwright offers a good amount of space, and a variety of terrain both of which are important. We actually expect people do be able to fight their vehicles / sections / platoons / companies / ect in more than just wide open spaces.

As in every other case, I was just curious.

As to Rick as a source....he can speak for himself if he wishes.

I could also make reference to a comment by @KevinB a while back about 1 VP using militia Bisons from the vehicle compound at CFB Calgary. That would have been ca 1990 (Bisons purchased and 1993 CFB Calgary closed)

Commanding Officers - The Calgary Highlanders

Former Commanding Officers of The Calgary Highlanders Lieutenant-Colonel Ryan Palmer, CD 2018-2021 Lieutenant-Colonel Palmer was born in Regina, Saskatchewan in 1981. In 2001, after four years as an Army Cadet, he joined the Calgary Highlanders as a reserve Infantry Officer. On completion of...

calgaryhighlanders.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Or standardize with the fleet of the World's largest user/producer of Western military vehicles...

Which version of the Abrams is the US sending to Ukraine?

And which FMTV truck is being used?

The FMTV is derived from the Austrian Steyr 12M18 truck, but substantially modified to meet United States Army requirements, these including a minimum 50 percent U.S. content.[3][4]

There were originally 17 FMTV variants—four variants in the nominal 2.5 U.S. ton payload class, designated Light Medium Tactical Vehicle (LMTV), and 13 variants with a nominal 5 U.S. ton payload rating, called Medium Tactical Vehicle (MTV).[5]

Since the first FMTVs were fielded in January 1996 the family has been expanded and the overall design enhanced considerably. The FMTV was originally manufactured by Stewart & Stevenson (1996–2006), then by Armor Holdings (2006–2007), then by what is now BAE Systems Platforms & Services until 2011. It is currently manufactured by Oshkosh Corporation.[3]

2850 FMTVs per year on average over the last 40 years.

Produced 1982–present No. built BAE Systems and legacy companies – 74,000 trucks and trailers Oshkosh Defense – 40,500 trucks and trailers as of August 2021 (production continues)

Oshkosh also built the MTVRs - the FMTV replacement for the USMC (a 1996 design that went into production in 1999) - 400 to 500 per year

Produced 1999–present No. built 11,359 to U.S. Marines/Navy, plus 430 (est.) export sales

Meanwhile

Ford F-Series: One sold every 49 seconds in 2022​

640,000 F-Series pickup trucks in 2022 in the USA,

The F-Series range includes the volume-selling F-150, including the all-electric Lightning variant, as well as the substantially beefier Super Duty models, which span from the F-250 to the F-600

Although the F-Series range has retained its crown for another year, it is far from its peak. Back in 2018 and 2019, before the pandemic hit, Ford managed to sell roughly 900,000 F-Series models each year.

This fell to 787,422 in 2020, and 726,004 in 2021. The 2022 preliminary figure issued by Ford means the F-Series is down 12 per cent from the previous year.

Although GM has yet to provide any figures, we expect the combined sales figures for the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra should be around 700,000, or 60,000 more than the F-Series.

Since the pandemic struck, the Silverado and Sierra have cumulatively outsold the F-Series with 778,689 moved in 2021, and 848,200 in 2020. Prior to this, the F-Series outsold the GM twins for the entire 2010s.

As for the Ram pickup range, we think it will notch up around 480,000 sales in 2022.

Ford F-Series: One sold every 49 seconds in 2022

Although final numbers aren't out yet, Ford is claiming the US sales crown for its ever-popular F-Series pickup truck range.

www.carexpert.com.au

JLTV - 4000 per year?

Produced	2016 (Low Rate Initial Production, LRIP); full rate production approved June 2019.[2]
No. built	over 18,500[3]

HMMWV - 7000 per year

Produced	1984–present
No. built	281,000

Buy commercial. Paint it green. Chuck it when it breaks and buy another one.

 

[markppcli]

As in every other case, I was just curious.

As to Rick as a source....he can speak for himself if he wishes.

I could also make reference to a comment by @KevinB a while back about 1 VP using militia Bisons from the vehicle compound at CFB Calgary. That would have been ca 1990 (Bisons purchased and 1993 CFB Calgary closed)

Commanding Officers - The Calgary Highlanders

Former Commanding Officers of The Calgary Highlanders Lieutenant-Colonel Ryan Palmer, CD 2018-2021 Lieutenant-Colonel Palmer was born in Regina, Saskatchewan in 1981. In 2001, after four years as an Army Cadet, he joined the Calgary Highlanders as a reserve Infantry Officer. On completion of...

calgaryhighlanders.com

I’m not sure if yo I expect me to go through that list and make a guess. What Kevin was saying above is that they were held by MTCs, so maybe in the garrison ( I assume that was the local training centre) and close to the Cal Highs but not formally by the unit. Anyways I’ll avoid topics from when I was a toddler in the future.

 

[Kirkhill]

I’m not sure if yo I expect me to go through that list and make a guess. What Kevin was saying above is that they were held by MTCs, so maybe in the garrison ( I assume that was the local training centre) and close to the Cal Highs but not formally by the unit. Anyways I’ll avoid topics from when I was a toddler in the future.

Sorry

​

 

[GR66]

Which version of the Abrams is the US sending to Ukraine?

And which FMTV truck is being used?

Not a problem if you follow the same upgrade schedule instead of waiting till you existing fleet has completely rusted out before you replace them...

 

[KevinB]

As in every other case, I was just curious.

As to Rick as a source....he can speak for himself if he wishes.

I could also make reference to a comment by @KevinB a while back about 1 VP using militia Bisons from the vehicle compound at CFB Calgary. That would have been ca 1990 (Bisons purchased and 1993 CFB Calgary closed)

Commanding Officers - The Calgary Highlanders

Former Commanding Officers of The Calgary Highlanders Lieutenant-Colonel Ryan Palmer, CD 2018-2021 Lieutenant-Colonel Palmer was born in Regina, Saskatchewan in 1981. In 2001, after four years as an Army Cadet, he joined the Calgary Highlanders as a reserve Infantry Officer. On completion of...

calgaryhighlanders.com

Bisons may have come from BC for that one. Long time ago...

 

[IKnowNothing]

I would probably see something more along the lines of:

1 CBG (Mechanized)

• 1 PPCLI (2 x Regular 1x Reserve Coy)
• 2 PPCLI (2x Regular 1x Reservist Coy)
• The British Columbia Regiment (all BC based reservists
  • 3 x Rifle Company
  • TAPV mobility Squadron
• LdSH
  • 2 x Tank Sqn 14 each
  • 1 x Recce Sqn
• Armoured Replacement Regiment
  • SALH (Tanks Crew)
  • FGH (Tank Crew)
  • SASKD LRSS Crews
• 1 CER
• 1 RCHA
  • 2 x Gun Bty
  • STA
  • OP Bty

5 CBG (Mechanized)

• 1 R22R (2 x Regular 1x Reserve Coy)
• 2 RCR (2 x Regular 1x Reserve Coy)
• 1 Fusiliers du Quebec (reserve)
  • 3x Rifle Coy
  • 1 x TAPV Sqn
• RCDs
  • 2 x Tank Sqn 14 each
  • 1 x Recce Sqn
• Armoured Replacement Regiment
  • Canadian Hussars, 8th and Royal (2x Sqns Tank crews)
  • Halifax Rifles (LRSS Crews)
• 5 CER
• 5 RALC
  • 2 x Ceasar Bty (2x4 gun troops augmented by 1 reserve tp each)
  • STA
  • OP Bty

2 CBG

• 3 RCR (3x reg Coy)
• 3 R22R (3 x reg Coy)
• 1 RCR (3 x reg Coy)
• 12 RBC
  • 3 x LRSS Sqn (light Cav would be another option)
• QOR (reserve)
• 2 CER
• 2 RCHA
  • 3 x 8 M777 Bty (each assigned 1 x 4 Gun reserve Tp)
  • OP Bty
  • STA Tp

Outside of that I see the reserves having another Bde total massing essentially “the rest.” Frankly I don’t know how much more is realistic, and I’ve aimed at having decent populations to supply those Reserve Bns in the CBGs (BC, Toronto, Montreal + Quebec City).

Thanks again. For the little its worth I like that lot.
Given the above, in a mobilization scenario would the reserve mech coy's be for sustainment/ replenishment or to round out the deployed Bn's to current doctrinal (3 coy) strength?

And how would you see readiness / roto's to Latvia shaking out with a base 4 rather than a base 6? 2BG has 3 phase intra bde mrp to keep a ready bn, do the 2 mech bde's truncate to 2 phase?

 

[KevinB]

Which version of the Abrams is the US sending to Ukraine?

And which FMTV truck is being used?



2850 FMTVs per year on average over the last 40 years.

Produced 1982–present No. built BAE Systems and legacy companies – 74,000 trucks and trailers Oshkosh Defense – 40,500 trucks and trailers as of August 2021 (production continues)

Oshkosh also built the MTVRs - the FMTV replacement for the USMC (a 1996 design that went into production in 1999) - 400 to 500 per year

Produced 1999–present No. built 11,359 to U.S. Marines/Navy, plus 430 (est.) export sales

Meanwhile

Ford F-Series: One sold every 49 seconds in 2022

Although final numbers aren't out yet, Ford is claiming the US sales crown for its ever-popular F-Series pickup truck range.

www.carexpert.com.au

JLTV - 4000 per year?

Produced	2016 (Low Rate Initial Production, LRIP); full rate production approved June 2019.[2]
No. built	over 18,500[3]

HMMWV - 7000 per year

Produced	1984–present
No. built	281,000

Buy commercial. Paint it green. Chuck it when it breaks and buy another one.

There is a massive difference between a commercial truck and a properly spec’d Mil vehicle.

 

[Kirkhill]

There is a massive difference between a commercial truck and a properly spec’s Mil vehicle.

But does there have to be? And does it justify the incredibly costly procurement and maintenance associated with that very niche customization?

As to commercial vehicles - which variant are you talking about? The one straight off the assembly line with this years mix of options or the ones directed to custom fab shops (upfitters?) that are building vehicles by the thousands annually to individual user specs?

Foremost Mobile Equipment

Download Foremost Mobile Equipment Product Catalog Foremost Mobile Equipment Since 1965, the Foremost name has been associated with our remarkable line of off-road tracked and wheeled vehicles. Early innovations like the Nodwell 110, developed in the Canadian Arctic in the 1960’s, set Foremost

www.foremost.ca

 

[KevinB]

But does there have to be? And does it justify the incredibly costly procurement and maintenance associated with that very niche customization?

Yes

As to commercial vehicles - which variant are you talking about? The one straight off the assembly line with this years mix of options or the ones directed to custom fab shops (upfitters?) that are building vehicles by the thousands annually to individual user specs?

Foremost Mobile Equipment

Download Foremost Mobile Equipment Product Catalog Foremost Mobile Equipment Since 1965, the Foremost name has been associated with our remarkable line of off-road tracked and wheeled vehicles. Early innovations like the Nodwell 110, developed in the Canadian Arctic in the 1960’s, set Foremost

www.foremost.ca

How much are a civilian Hummer versus a Military.

 

[childs56]

There is a massive difference between a commercial truck and a properly spec’d Mil vehicle.

Honestly besides the shielded 24volt system, blackout lights and few hardened points for a gun ring what's the major difference?
Most Commercial trucks nowadays can have different style cabs mounted in different configurations, axles weights, auto or manual transmissions, 4, 6 or 8 wheel drive. Short, medium or long set back, frame cab length and the list goes on.
The MSVS based off a commercial truck that they military spec's out way to left field. Getting in and out of that thing would suck. The height is huge, turning radius enormous, 10.8 L Renault DXi 11 engine wow, and a 6-speed Allison 4500SP automatic.
Just that engine alone and parts availability in Canada would make me worry.

 

[childs56]

Yes


How much are a civilian Hummer versus a Military.

That is kind of a loaded question. It depends on what spec and year your talking about. Early year civilian models were $40,000 upwards of $150,000. the latest fully loaded civilian model for 2021 are from $112,000 to $412,000.
Military versions are from what I can tell $265,000 equivalent for up armoured versions.