Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[markppcli]

Those aren't good examples. They are not infantry battalion missions, they are SFCB missions that don't require "infantry", but rather require a TF HQ and a mish-mash of leader heavy detachments to "build capacity" in a static location(s).

I wasn’t talking about Ukraine or the training side of Iraq. We’ve sent a rifle company to Poland in a light role, and took over the FP Coy task in Iraq in SUVs. Admittedly the last one isn’t an “infantry task.”

 

[markppcli]

If three light battalions is too limiting, is there any merit in keeping one true light battalion or light BG? Perhaps based on 3 RCR? Something that is owned by the Army, capable of independent operation, and also interoperable with CANSOF? Is there a need for Canada to have a limited Global or Territorial Response capability that resides in the CA itself?

The other two battalions could be folded into the remaining six mech units to flesh out combat support capabilities and personnel shortfalls. If no light unit is required, then fold 3 RCR in as well. Or perhaps CANSOF would like something along the lines of a Ranger Bn, and use it as a pipeline for direct entry into that world.

Would make sense to me, an airmobile high readiness Bn and six mechanized Bns all flushed out with their supports.

That was the original intent, but if the Ajax program is in as serious trouble as claimed in the media, they may have to rerole the Warriors for awhile.

Warriors for Recce when Scimitars haven’t been replaced yet? Seems like you just continue on the same platform rather than switching it around.

 

[Kirkhill]

Would make sense to me, an airmobile high readiness Bn and six mechanized Bns all flushed out with their supports.

I'm actually ok with that. If Underway will buy me a ship or two to move a Brigade to, and from, theatre at short notice.

I would still require a General Purpose Infantry-Centric Militia - with a strong permanent force cadre of organizers, instructors and supporters.

And a strong contingent of light cavalry and gun/missile operators. Trucks in the parking lot for disaster relief would be nice as well.

How's the budget doing?

 

[suffolkowner]

The size and mobility of your MBT and IFV/APC has to have in theatre strategic consequences and not just tactical considerations if operations are too greatly limited due to the inability to traverse terrain or cross over or under bridges or use roadways

Why is there so much trouble with the AJAX? Is it not a derivative of the ASCOD and does it suffer from the same issues?

AJAX: Delayed Programme 'Doomed To Fail' If MOD Ignores Leaked Report

There are 589 Ajax vehicles on order with UK defence, with 14 delivered. Forces News spoke to defence analyst Francis Tusa.

www.forces.net

Interesting topic on organizational issues, I'm enjoying it

 

[GR66]

If three light battalions is too limiting, is there any merit in keeping one true light battalion or light BG? Perhaps based on 3 RCR? Something that is owned by the Army, capable of independent operation, and also interoperable with CANSOF? Is there a need for Canada to have a limited Global or Territorial Response capability that resides in the CA itself?

The other two battalions could be folded into the remaining six mech units to flesh out combat support capabilities and personnel shortfalls. If no light unit is required, then fold 3 RCR in as well. Or perhaps CANSOF would like something along the lines of a Ranger Bn, and use it as a pipeline for direct entry into that world.

I'd view the three Light Battalions as a starting point for FORCE 2025 leading into FORCE 2030. It just separates the light infantry battalions from the Mechanized Battalion structure to allow for some experimentation with roles and structures.

I imagine you'd likely end up with something that would be based on, or allow you to build Combat Teams using light air-transportable vehicles. These Combat Teams might be heavy on integrated support elements to allow for extended independent operations until heavier forces are able to follow on. They'd likely be equipped with a higher proportion of launchers to rifles than our traditional infantry battalions to make up for their smaller size.

How ever they end up looking I'm certain it would be considerably smaller than a three Battalion Light Infantry Brigade because frankly we'd have no way of deploying and supporting such a large unit in the field at the same time as we're trying to mobilize and deploy a Mechanized Brigade Group.

Once you figure out the right structure for the Light force I'd shift the surplus PY's back into the LAV Battalions to fill out the Combat Support Companies to give them the extra "launchers" they need to properly support their "rifles".

FORCE 2025 should be seen as a stepping stone to where we want to end up, not as an objective itself.

 

[markppcli]

I don’t know that we have so much infantry that we can commit a full third to experimentation.

 

[GR66]

I don’t know that we have so much infantry that we can commit a full third to experimentation.

But we can commit them to being a poorly thought out appendage to our Mechanized Brigades?

Edited to add: At least the short experimentation phase is intended to end up with a useful end product. And frankly we should always have a portion of our force committed to experimentation in order to keep up with changes in technology, etc. (obviously not 1/3 of our force).

 

[markppcli]

But we can commit them to being a poorly thought out appendage to our Mechanized Brigades?

No, we commit them as PYs to fill out our anemic mechanized Bns. With perhaps a Bn held at Divison (like a real division. I one of our regional ones) as a conventional high readiness / qrf.

left overs can fill up our institutions so we aren’t stripped bare of NCOs for half the year.

 

[GR66]

No, we commit them as PYs to fill out our anemic mechanized Bns. With perhaps a Bn held at Divison (like a real division. I one of our regional ones) as a conventional high readiness / qrf.

So we're saying the same thing. Only I'm just saying that it will take some time to make that transition. You're not going to disband two battalions of infantry and come up with a new role for a re-defined light force and equip it to fulfill that role by 2025.

Absolutely I'm fully in favour of shifting some PY's from the Light Battalions into the LAV Battalions starting at the beginning of the transition process but these things don't happen overnight.

 

[markppcli]

I suppose the fact that we’ve not found a role for them in thirty years counts for naught then ? Or is 40 years the time frame we deem as acceptable for organizational changes ?

 

[markppcli]

So we're saying the same thing. Only I'm just saying that it will take some time to make that transition. You're not going to disband two battalions of infantry and come up with a new role for a re-defined light force and equip it to fulfill that role by 2025.

Absolutely I'm fully in favour of shifting some PY's from the Light Battalions into the LAV Battalions starting at the beginning of the transition process but these things don't happen overnight.

I'm not trying to say it's an overnight thing, I just don't accept that it can't be done in 5 years. We have plenty of examples to follow, and haven't found a role for them in decades. So let's keep a Bn and we can plug and play with that as needed. What is needed now if full (ish) battalions and schools to let the army function properly.

 

[GR66]

I'm not trying to say it's an overnight thing, I just don't accept that it can't be done in 5 years. We have plenty of examples to follow, and haven't found a role for them in decades. So let's keep a Bn and we can plug and play with that as needed. What is needed now if full (ish) battalions and schools to let the army function properly.

If you believe that we can disband two Light Infantry Battalions, re-locate 1000+ personnel, transfer LAV Battalions from Gagetown to Petawawa and from Quebec to Valcartier (does it make sense for those Brigades to have their remaining Battalions physically separated? Shilo might be a special case because they have their Artillery Regiment and training facilities there already) by 2025 then I'm all in with you. Figuring out the structure and equipment for the remaining Light Battalion (3 RCR relocated to Gagetown?) might take longer than that, but I can live with it.

I however don't have as much faith as you in the ability of the CF to move that quickly.

 

[markppcli]

Relocation would be ideal but probably isn’t practical at this point. Of course 2R22Rs LAVs are actually in Valcartier anyways so too easy there. The light Bn should be in Pet with the Chinooks, also close to Trenton for air lift. Just makes sense. I think transferring personal could be done relatively quickly if I’m honest.

 

[Underway]

Ok so following this construct of reducing the light infantry. You take 3 PPCL and 3e 22nd and use those extra people to fill out the other two battalions. If there are folks leftover (say a company's worth) then perhaps a specialty company needs to be made like TOW or somesuch to provide another tool.

3 RCR becomes the only Reg F light infantry Bn (I chose them because they are closest to the majority of air assets both fixed and rotary wing). Experimentation begins on how to best use them.

No moves need to be made immediately. 3e 22nd is literally an hour and a half from Valcartier. Most soldiers live halfway between the two in the suburbs anyway. 3PPCLI will likely have to have some pers moved to Brandon.
That also means that the RCR doesn't benefit from the re-roll of the extra battalion for numbers.

OK so infantry is sorted out, some pain but it's not as brutal as the next question.

What to do with the armour? From what I understand the organization is that Strats have 2 tank companies, 1 recce. RCD have 3 recce and a shared tank with 12RBC for training/famil 12 RBC has a two recce.

What's a good way to deal with them.

 

[markppcli]

Ok so following this construct of reducing the light infantry. You take 3 PPCL and 3e 22nd and use those extra people to fill out the other two battalions. If there are folks leftover (say a company's worth) then perhaps a specialty company needs to be made like TOW or somesuch to provide another tool.

3 RCR becomes the only Reg F light infantry Bn (I chose them because they are closest to the majority of air assets both fixed and rotary wing). Experimentation begins on how to best use them.

No moves need to be made immediately. 3e 22nd is literally an hour and a half from Valcartier. Most soldiers live halfway between the two in the suburbs anyway. 3PPCLI will likely have to have some pers moved to Brandon.
That also means that the RCR doesn't benefit from the re-roll of the extra battalion for numbers.

OK so infantry is sorted out, some pain but it's not as brutal as the next question.

What to do with the armour? From what I understand the organization is that Strats have 2 tank companies, 1 recce. RCD have 3 recce and a shared tank with 12RBC for training/famil 12 RBC has a two recce.

What's a good way to deal with them.

I would, in the interested of minimizing regimental infighting, probably name that new light Bn something else, maybe even use a reserve unit? Queens Own Rifles of Canada or something maybe? Anyways we can spend 6 months studying it and probably arrive at something resembling a good idea. Each Regiment would basically give up a company, and have two companies to reinforce their 1st and 2nd Bns, now with full combat support coys, extra bodies would fill in our depleted schools.

The Armour. We aren't getting more tanks, so it's a decision between having an Australian style 2 Recce 1 Tank Regiment per Bde, or do we mass them in one Regiment? I would say it's probably better we mass them, and then the next question is does it belong in Wainwright or Gagetown?

 

[Underway]

I would, in the interested of minimizing regimental infighting, probably name that new light Bn something else, maybe even use a reserve unit? Queens Own Rifles of Canada or something maybe? Anyways we can spend 6 months studying it and probably arrive at something resembling a good idea. Each Regiment would basically give up a company, and have two companies to reinforce their 1st and 2nd Bns, now with full combat support coys, extra bodies would fill in our depleted schools.

The Armour. We aren't getting more tanks, so it's a decision between having an Australian style 2 Recce 1 Tank Regiment per Bde, or do we mass them in one Regiment? I would say it's probably better we mass them, and then the next question is does it belong in Wainwright or Gagetown?

If you're going to rename them then it has to be The Blackwatch. Mainly because you would never, ever again have recruiting issues as all those PRes Scottish regiments would switch over in a heartbeat!

Are the tanks not already generally massed? Strats have two tank companies and 1 recce in their regiment. The RCD and 12RBC share a tank company between themselves for training and sustainment in case of a long mission. This seems... odd. It leaves 3rd Div short on Recce and the other two short on armour.

If you are going to mass them, then does that not mean you need more Recce elements in the Div as well? Wouldn't ideally you have 3 tank companies with 3 recce. Or are CMBG only requiring one of each. And if you mass the tanks then the other CMBGs are going to need different AT assets (like a TOW company I mentioned earlier).

This assumes of course that you don't just rotate different regiments in and out of CMBG's as we did in Afghanistan. Where there was some mix and match with the units that filled out the deployed troops (Strat tanks, RCD recce, PPCLI infantry, one RCR company, all were part of my deployment in 09).

 

[MilEME09]

The Armour. We aren't getting more tanks, so it's a decision between having an Australian style 2 Recce 1 Tank Regiment per Bde, or do we mass them in one Regiment? I would say it's probably better we mass them, and then the next question is does it belong in Wainwright or Gagetown?

Wainwright, strats have the more experience at this point, I'd also move the school to Wainwright or Suffield. If Suffield, arrange a deal so the British run OPFOR, would create some great training opportunities.

 

[Ostrozac]

I would, in the interested of minimizing regimental infighting, probably name that new light Bn something else

And congratulations, we have just invented the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

All of this is pure posturing of course, if we can't decide what the army is for. If it is for force generating combat ready medium brigades, as SSE implies, then the light battalions are of course, useless -- unless we actually want a high-readiness light force, something that we possibly don't want, as we disbanded such a force in 1995 and haven't really missed it much. Light forces are something that the army hasn't been able to wrap their heads around over the course of the ensuing 25 years, so it's a hard argument that light infantry battalions without doctrine or supporting enablers bring something to the table that a LAV battalion temporarily stripped of its armoured vehicles can't provide. Especially if we insist on a 6-12 month road to war -- this is plenty of time for a LAV company to re-role to dismounted.

The bigger gaps are not organizational, they involve equipment. Self-propelled mortars, ATGMs, air defence, artillery that is not towed behind a truck. And we won't fix our equipment problem before 2025 -- so long as we treat purchasing a pistol as having the complexity of the Manhattan Project.

 

[markppcli]

Wainwright, strats have the more experience at this point, I'd also move the school to Wainwright or Suffield. If Suffield, arrange a deal so the British run OPFOR, would create some great training opportunities.

The counter point being that having them in Gagetown puts them much closer to ports if we did need to deploy them.

 

[markppcli]

Are the tanks not already generally massed? Strats have two tank companies and 1 recce in their regiment. The RCD and 12RBC share a tank company between themselves for training and sustainment in case of a long mission. This seems... odd. It leaves 3rd Div short on Recce and the other two short on armour.

If you are going to mass them, then does that not mean you need more Recce elements in the Div as well? Wouldn't ideally you have 3 tank companies with 3 recce. Or are CMBG only requiring one of each. And if you mass the tanks then the other CMBGs are going to need different AT assets (like a TOW company I mentioned earlier).

I think that's common problem when discussing out organization, assuming rationality had something to do with it and we aren't just the result of various cuts and knee jerk reactions.