Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[Brad Sallows]

Prince George... there's a ton of support - from the Cabinet level on down - for a bigger military presence there.

Lots of Crown Land to work with and easy access to ranges in Alberta too, as required.

I've been spoiled by the handful of times we (BC Res F units) went to Ft Lewis (now Lewis-McChord). I'm enamoured of the idea of a base that has a large enough cantonment area for future expansion, and ranges and dry training areas right there. Enough for a division and corps troops, if we had them. Proximity to a major metro area would be a plus, but isn't practical in BC; one of the medium-sized cities (Kelowna, Kamloops, Prince George) as a consolation prize would be OK. It'd be better to be within at least a short spur distance to CN and CPKC (or whatever CP is now). An airfield sufficient for movements.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I've been spoiled by the handful of times we (BC Res F units) went to Ft Lewis (now Lewis-McChord). I'm enamoured of the idea of a base that has a large enough cantonment area for future expansion, and ranges and dry training areas right there. Enough for a division and corps troops, if we had them. Proximity to a major metro area would be a plus, but isn't practical in BC; one of the medium-sized cities (Kelowna, Kamloops, Prince George) as a consolation prize would be OK. It'd be better to be within at least a short spur distance to CN and CPKC (or whatever CP is now). An airfield sufficient for movements.

As I recall it became almost impossible to get range time at JBLM. No idea what it's like these days but it's never a great idea, as we know now, to have to rely on Uncle Sam to meet our national defense needs

 

[Brad Sallows]

As I recall it became almost impossible to get range time at JBLM. No idea what it's like these days but it's never a great idea, as we know now, to have to rely on Uncle Sam to meet our national defense needs

It was always necessary to book months early, at risk of being bumped for their priorities (obviously). I don't know about almost impossible, but my experience is over 20 years out of date.

Has the US barred Canada, or is Canada being discreet for the sake of our own domestic politics?

When Trump leaves, we're still neighbours, with most of us clustered along the shared border. Foolish to lose our collective nut and compromise co-operation and sharing more than the absolute minimum necessary.

 

[quadrapiper]

Please, no. It's a tiny cantonment area with a few miniscule dry training areas and one rifle range that is or was under review for a templating error, if I understood what was posted in another thread here a while back.

Which is more than the Lower Mainland has now, and within, traffic allowing, day-training distance.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There is the Chilcotin Country. Pretty large maneouvre area in the training area.

First Nations' land conflicts are keeping everyone out of that region these days, and it would be amazing if DND didn't hand back the training area to the Chilcotin Band at some point.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Which is more than the Lower Mainland has now, and within, traffic allowing, day-training distance.

The plot of land the service battalion armoury is on is as good as anything in the Columbia Valley, and closer. Chilliwack is not within any reasonable interpretation of "day training" unless a unit starts already east of Langley or the "day training" is "driver training". There is no point spending 2+ hours marshalling and driving there, and another 2+ hours returning and cleaning up.

The availability of DND property is so constrained in that region that units ought to be creative about seeking permission to use other lands. Once that's sorted, all that's needed is a small arms and grenade range (ie. Vokes). Anything heavier means going out-of-province. A road trip to AB is impractical. That leaves the US complexes.

Unless the federal government grows balls big enough to acquire and develop a large firing area somewhere in BC within reasonable and safe driving distance - which Chilcotin barely is, and should not be entertained - US facilities have to be on the menu unless the Res F units have shrunken in capability to the point where nothing larger than Vokes is needed.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The plot of land the service battalion armoury is on is as good as anything in the Columbia Valley, and closer. Chilliwack is not within any reasonable interpretation of "day training" unless a unit starts already east of Langley or the "day training" is "driver training". There is no point spending 2+ hours marshalling and driving there, and another 2+ hours returning and cleaning up.

The availability of DND property is so constrained in that region that units ought to be creative about seeking permission to use other lands. Once that's sorted, all that's needed is a small arms and grenade range (ie. Vokes). Anything heavier means going out-of-province. A road trip to AB is impractical. That leaves the US complexes.

Unless the federal government grows balls big enough to acquire and develop a large firing area somewhere in BC within reasonable and safe driving distance - which Chilcotin barely is, and should not be entertained - US facilities have to be on the menu unless the Res F units have shrunken in capability to the point where nothing larger than Vokes is needed.

39 Svc Bn's Sea Island area is a tiny, heavily wooded and otherwise dismally limited training area with much encroachment from local 'berry pickers' etc.

IMHO Vokes is a great resource, and much under used except on weekends when the ARes units are out there. Again, it's under pressure from the local community including First Nations who continue to claim the land as their own. There are also templating and ammo nature issues that I'm not sure have been fully resolved yet. At one point they couldn't fire 7.62mm, for example. I'm not sure if the grenade range is still in operation.

OPSEE and Columbia Valley are about the only dry training areas that make sense, and they're pretty limited due to geography and community pressures. If you wanted to train a mountain ops unit, it's a perfect location though!

There's a 25m range in the camp proper that the police still use, I think, and a demo range up Slesse Creek.

If the battalion needs to do field firing a road move to and from Wainwright, for a couple of weeks in the field or so, wouldn't be out of the question... or even take the train

 

[Brad Sallows]

39 Svc Bn's Sea Island area is a tiny, heavily wooded and otherwise dismally limited training area with much encroachment from local 'berry pickers' etc.

Areas A, B, and C in the Columbia valley are tiny, heavily wooded and otherwise dismally limited training areas. Sometimes there is encroachment by unauthorized border crossers at night. (Range control briefing: if you see people moving through the area, leave them alone.) OPSEE is marginally a little more useful. I don't see how any of them is really a "mountain ops" area, unless you're training to set up a base camp and do hill runs. Getting permission to use Bridal Saddle would be better.

If the battalion needs to do field firing a road move to and from Wainwright, for a couple of weeks in the field or so, wouldn't be out of the question... or even take the train

A road move to Wainwright used to be 3 days: Chilliwack to Vernon, Vernon to Calgary, Calgary to Wainwright. The return trip was the reverse. It's a lot of time and work for a single - typically small - unit. Res F units generally don't do more than one week in the field at a time except during formation concentrations.

Unless the future army structure is committed to putting one or more Reg F army units back in BC and/or until it results in purposeful increase in size and capability of the local Res F units, adding new infrastructure anywhere doesn't make much sense. Also, it should bear some relevance to a mobilization plan. Until then, politicians ought to master their emotions so that we can continue to cooperate with the US.

 

[Kirkhill]

Wainwright area 583 km2
Suffield area 2700 km2
Gagetown area 1100 km2
Valcartier area 288 km2
Petawawa area 300 km2

....

UAVs, and the C-UAV battle, which are likely to be a feature of section and platoon engagements, seem to eat up a lot of real estate really fast.




.....

Hero 120 LAM is launched from a man-portable tube and has a range of 60 km while flying at 1200 to 3000 ft AGL (400 to 1000 m).
60x60x3.14 = 11,304 km2 Area of Influence
1000 m altitude = 113 km horizon from any given position = 113x113x3.14 = 40,000 km2 Area of Observation
And if you add in the 60 km flight range you get
(113+60) x (113+60) x 3.14 = 94,000 km2 Area of Potential Observation.

Switchblade 600 has a range of 40 km but can be forward passed to 90 km while flying at 150 m

Ukrainian FPV drones fly at up to 1500 m and have a range of 15 to 20 km
20x20x3.14 = 1200 km2
138 km horizon

....

Slinger is an anti-drone weapon system developed by Electro Optic Systems (EOS) of Symonston, Australia. It was introduced in May 2023.

It consists of:

• a remote controlled weapon station (RCWS) based on the EOS model R400 RCWS that uses a lightweight Bushmaster M230LF autocannon which is fully stabilised and capable of on-the-move operation. 150 radio frequency proximity fused, high-explosive/fragmentation 30x113 mm rounds are carried. Rate of fire is selectable at single-shot, 100 rpm, or 200 rpm.
• a secondary MAG 58 coaxial machine gun.
• an Echodyne EchoGuard 4D multi mission surveillance radar is integrated into the system providing detection ranges of more than 3.5 km for vehicles and more than 2.2 km for individuals, while small drones can be detected out to 1-1.4 km and engaged at beyond 800 m.
• the sensor unit, which includes a day camera and thermal imager that can identify objects at distances of 12 km and 13.7 km, respectively.

The turret system weighs 355 kg and has a height of 90 cm, so it can be mounted on the roofs of vehicles or even the flatbed of a pickup truck. It can elevate the guns up to +70° and depress them down to -10°. An operator controls the turret using a joystick from inside the vehicle; it is capable of tracking a target on its own for the controller to engage.

The Slinger is designed for low-cost counter-drone interception. Compared to traditional missiles that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars being used against drones costing in the low tens of thousands or less, Slinger has a cost per engagement ranging from $155-$1,550; unit cost is less than $1.55 million.

In September 2023, it was announced that 160 Slingers would be provided to Ukraine by EOS for use in that country's defence during the ongoing invasion by Russia. 110 will be mounted on M113 armored personnel carriers and 50 will be integrated onto Practika [uk] 4x4 light MRAPs.

10x the price of the 12.7 mm Sky Sentinel AI turret but the Sky Sentinel needs to be netted with a radar sensor. It relies on it on board EO/IR system to engage the target.

.....

The VAMPIRE/APKWS system has a range of up to something like 5 km.



....

Both the guns and missiles work best when netted with a radar like the M-ACE from Northrop.



The reported detection range for UAVs is 10 km

Ukraine will operate Northrop Grumman M-ACE C-UAS - Military Embedded Systems

SOF WEEK 2023 -- TAMPA, Fla. Northrop Grumman is currently showcasing some of its cannons and ammunition at the SOF Week exhibition in Tampa, Florida, including its counter-unmanned aerial system (C-UAS) that features airbursting ammunition and proximity-fuzed ammunition when needed to defeat...

militaryembedded.com

.....

 

[Kirkhill]

And there is this to consider as well

 

[KevinB]

And there is this to consider as well

 

[daftandbarmy]

Areas A, B, and C in the Columbia valley are tiny, heavily wooded and otherwise dismally limited training areas. Sometimes there is encroachment by unauthorized border crossers at night. (Range control briefing: if you see people moving through the area, leave them alone.) OPSEE is marginally a little more useful. I don't see how any of them is really a "mountain ops" area, unless you're training to set up a base camp and do hill runs. Getting permission to use Bridal Saddle would be better.

A road move to Wainwright used to be 3 days: Chilliwack to Vernon, Vernon to Calgary, Calgary to Wainwright. The return trip was the reverse. It's a lot of time and work for a single - typically small - unit. Res F units generally don't do more than one week in the field at a time except during formation concentrations.

Unless the future army structure is committed to putting one or more Reg F army units back in BC and/or until it results in purposeful increase in size and capability of the local Res F units, adding new infrastructure anywhere doesn't make much sense. Also, it should bear some relevance to a mobilization plan. Until then, politicians ought to master their emotions so that we can continue to cooperate with the US.

Yeah, in BC it’s like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

 

[Kirkhill]

It gives a whole new meaning to "tanglefoot". Kevlar Optical Fibre?

Fiber Optics

For fiber optics applications where compression, flexibility and low diameter are required, DuPont® Kevlar® helps protect against mechanical stress.

www.dupont.com

 

[Kirkhill]

This map explains a lot of the problems with BC. Crown land is a claim. Along with many others. Even the modern treaty land in BC is apparently in dispute between bands.




How does Singapore maintain a useful defence force?

Singapore Armed Forces - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pulau Tekong - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirkhill]

A road move to Wainwright used to be 3 days: Chilliwack to Vernon, Vernon to Calgary, Calgary to Wainwright. The return trip was the reverse. It's a lot of time and work for a single - typically small - unit. Res F units generally don't do more than one week in the field at a time except during formation concentrations.

Air movements?

We are seriously under-resourced in that field. Hercs and Hooks? A local squadron of Hooks picking up people at their armouries on Fridays to take them to Abbotsford or Kelowna for a Herc flight to Wainwright or Suffield. Weapons drawn on arrival.

I know it is expensive but trying to hold this land with the people we have was always going to be an expensive proposition.

 

[quadrapiper]

Air movements?

We are seriously under-resourced in that field. Hercs and Hooks? A local squadron of Hooks picking up people at their armouries on Fridays to take them to Abbotsford or Kelowna for a Herc flight to Wainwright or Suffield. Weapons drawn on arrival.

I know it is expensive but trying to hold this land with the people we have was always going to be an expensive proposition.

Could see an argument for that as an RCAF Reserve role.

 

[MilEME09]

You are saying nothing coherent. This is not a 2019 tweet, so you can communicate in sentences to explain whatever is inside your head.

I gave a simple answer to a simple question. The complex answer is that I'd argue CJOC is the only organization capable for the kind of level of coordination that would be expected of a corp HQ. Using it as the baseline for creation of a corp HQ then makes sense. The other option would be to maintain CJOC as is and turn 1 Div into a corp HQ. Reduce the army to two division HQs, one corp HQ.

We need to streamline and reorganize our tail, not create more HQs and fatten out tail

 

[FJAG]

I gave a simple answer to a simple question. The complex answer is that I'd argue CJOC is the only organization capable for the kind of level of coordination that would be expected of a corp HQ. Using it as the baseline for creation of a corp HQ then makes sense. The other option would be to maintain CJOC as is and turn 1 Div into a corp HQ. Reduce the army to two division HQs, one corp HQ.

We need to streamline and reorganize our tail, not create more HQs and fatten out tail

We need a CJOC in both peace and war. We need decent divisions in the army in both peace and war. We need an army HQ to manage all the things that an army headquarters needs to manage in both peace and war. We do not need a corps headquarters until we plan on deploying more than one division in war or agree to supply a corps headquarters to an allied structure that will contribute additional divisions. There

My bush-league math tells me that based on total folks in the army - reg and res - the army is best organized into two divisions. We do not have enough equipment to field one division much less both. We barely have the troops we need as CS or CSS for one division much less two and much less for a corps.

 

[McG]

I gave a simple answer to a simple question.

You made an incoherent proposal and responded with another incoherent statement when asked for clarity. And your follow-up now suggests you have no idea what CJOC is nor what a corps does.

The complex answer is that I'd argue CJOC is the only organization capable for the kind of level of coordination that would be expected of a corp HQ. Using it as the baseline for creation of a corp HQ then makes sense.

How does this make sense? It is a non-deployable operational level joint HQ. It does not have the right people, competencies, equipment, or structures to plan and control mobile corps level war-fighting. If you want an army corps, you are probably better carving it out of CA HQ than trying to smash it out of CJOC.

We need to streamline and reorganize our tail, not create more HQs and fatten out tail

Your proposal doesn’t advance either of your stated objectives. Firstly, when we talk of “tail” that is generally a reference to CSS (not headquarters) and that is an area where the CA and the CAF are collectively understrenghed. Secondly, you are proposing smashing another layer of HQ into the army. It doesn’t matter that you robbed it from somewhere else, you are doing the opposite of streamlining.

Everyone likes to dunk on the existence of higher HQs, and there is definitely a lot of room for improvement within all layers of HQ. But, we don’t have simple problems that can be solved by pithy one-liner solutions. One of the institution’s problems is too many pithy one-liner solutions that never had details hammered out. You think CJOC HQ should become a Corps HQ for CA? Who takes on the CJOC responsibilities that CA cannot or should not do? What are the responsibilities of this new HQ (because, yes it is a new HQ even if based on CJOC PYs)? Who reports to this HQ? What does CA HQ do once it is separated from divisions by a new layer of HQ? Will the Corps Comd be a 3 leaf or a 2 leaf, and what are the impacts of the selected rank? And (most importantly) why do we need a corps HQ?