Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[KevinB]

Formal training/coursing is one thing; practical experience employing that skill set is where actual proficiency and ability emerge.

No sense in your class C training if its not going to be practiced afterword's.

Reserve forces are always gonna have an experience issue, not doing something day and a day. Clearly there is a Delta between those that do that. But if implemented properly ones “active“ time afterwards should be enough to at least maintain the knowledge and slightly improve it.

All of that requires a fundamental shift on how Canada employees looks after its reserve forces.

In that same vein while I’m a huge proponent of hybrid forces, I’m also a realist when it comes to time for training and that and I believe the senior levels save more Officer on the NCM side and MAJ on the Officer side in any above should be filled by regular force personnel or recently transferred from the regular force.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Reserve forces are always gonna have an experience issue, not doing something day and a day. Clearly there is a Delta between those that do that. But if implemented properly ones “active“ time afterwards should be enough to at least maintain the knowledge and slightly improve it.

Where does that divide become too great ? Truckers and Light Inf is what the ARes should be.

All of that requires a fundamental shift on how Canada employees looks after its reserve forces.

Flesh that out. How does that work ? I'm a Pte Veh Tech, just finished my fulltime QL3, back on Class A for next 6 years... Tell me how that works ?

In that same vein while I’m a huge proponent of hybrid forces, I’m also a realist when it comes to time for training and that and I believe the senior levels save more Officer on the NCM side and MAJ on the Officer side in any above should be filled by regular force personnel or recently transferred from the regular force.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here...

We love to trot out the Army National Guard, I have worked with them, they aren't the bright light in the dark room people make them out to be.

 

[Remius]

Or maybe the people that are authorities on things can get their heads out of the asses when it comes to reservists with actual skills.

I have an NCO who is a long haul trucker who is air brake qualified. But we are having a hard time getting him PLARed because he doesn’t have an airbrake certificate because there is no such thing civy side. He has an actual license.

FML

 

[Halifax Tar]

Or maybe the people that are authorities on things can get their heads out of the asses when it comes to reservists with actual skills.

I have an NCO who is a long haul trucker who is air brake qualified. But we are having a hard time getting him PLARed because he doesn’t have an airbrake certificate because there is no such thing civy side. He has an actual license.

FML

Does he want to be an MSEOP ?

I agree, we need to get out of the way of existing proven and professional skill sets.

 

[KevinB]

Formal training/coursing is one thing; practical experience employing that skill set is where actual proficiency and ability emerge.

No sense in your class C training if its not going to be practiced afterword's.

Reserve forces are always gonna have an experience issue, not doing something day and a day. Clearly there is a Delta between those that do that. But if implemented properly ones “active“ time afterwards should be enough to at least maintain the knowledge and slightly improve it.

All of that requires a fundamental shift on how Canada employees looks after its reserve forces.

In that same vein while I’m a huge proponent of hybrid forces, I’m also a realist when it comes to time for training and that and I believe the senior levels save more Officer on the NCM side and MAJ on the Officer side in any above should be filled by regular force personnel or recently transferred ifrom the regular force.

Where does that divide become too great ? Truckers and Light Inf is what the ARes should be.

Light Infantry actually takes a lot more time to maintain skills on, as you cannot simply find a simulator for climbing, jumping, etc.

Flesh that out. How does that work ? I'm a Pte Veh Tech, just finished my fulltime QL3, back on Class A for next 6 years... Tell me how that works ?

You finish the Qual, then during the next year do 30day of active time with the full time part of your unit.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here...

I think @FJAG ‘s 30/70 concept is very solid. Realistically I would say it would probably be 35/65, as you want to be able to have some of the PRes folks on active rotation at any one time, simply as not everyone will be able to do a summer camp.

We love to trot out the Army National Guard, I have worked with them, they aren't the bright light in the dark room people make them out to be.

The Sum is greater than the parts.
Individually I agree, but they do form functional formations as a whole.

Canada isn’t going to fund 3 Divisions of Regular Army personnel. The equipment would be a struggle, but doable as long as a cascade system was introduced. The annual personnel costs (both direct and indirect) on the other hand would be astronomical. You can look at our CBO data to see how much a Regular Army Bde costs compared to that of the ARNG. The Guard is around 10% of the Regular Army. Canada could however create a hybrid 3 Division Corps, now it wouldn’t (and couldn’t) occur overnight, but it is something to strive towards.

It would require
1) Changes to the current system in terms of what full time continuous service meant, as well as strong job protection legislation for PRes personnel, as well as tax breaks and other incentives to business that employ Reservists.

2) Changes to the training and promotion system of the Regular Army and Reserves to adopt a ‘One Army, One Standard’ as well as pay and pensions.

3) Seamless transition between Active and Reserve status, as well as enhanced education opportunities and benefits.

4) Vastly increased infrastructure, domestic production and R&D.

5) Cascading equipment to lower readiness Bde’s on a logical cycle - that includes a full reset of equipment at 3rd/4th line. Which in turn would eventually allow for ‘war stock’ of equipment to be held in long term storage in case of mobilization.

This would also create a much larger pool of personnel to draw from for promotions and Command opportunities, as well as give opportunities to CA personnel to command and staff higher than a Bde in the CA as opposed to requiring OUTCAN, as well as offer more exchange options with allied forces.

 

[Remius]

Does he want to be an MSEOP ?

No, we just need him to drive an MSVS without sending him on a multi weekend course just to get a qual he already has. It’s also helpful because he’s the ARQMS.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Light Infantry actually takes a lot more time to maintain skills on, as you cannot simply find a simulator for climbing, jumping, etc.

I can have troops practice climbing, jumping, marching and shooting on a training night.

I can have troops practice driving a truck on a training night.

I can probably get troops to practice changing the oil or a tire in a training night.

I cant get troops pull an engine/powerpack strip it down, rebuild it, reinstall it and test it in a training night.

You finish the Qual, then during the next year do 30day of active time with the full time part of your unit.

When is that ? A year of training nights away ? What if I cant make it ?

I think @FJAG ‘s 30/70 concept is very solid. Realistically I would say it would probably be 35/65, as you want to be able to have some of the PRes folks on active rotation at any one time, simply as not everyone will be able to do a summer camp.

Sure. I am all for turning the RegF Army into a CSS dominated world, it makes complete sense. But that's not going to happen.

The Sum is greater than the parts. Individually I agree, but they do form functional formations as a whole.

The ones I met and served alongside, amazing people. So much better than the Brits, fuck them. But really no better than our current ARes folks they just have more kit. Tons of heart and can do attitude. Loved it. Ill take a Dept of that any day and twice on Sundays.

No, we just need him to drive an MSVS without sending him on a multi weekend course just to get a qual he already has. It’s also helpful because he’s the ARQMS.

Ya we need to get out of that way. Maybe put him with a driver examiner for a confirmation ride and call it a day.

 

[Kirkhill]

Other countries seem to have figured it out. Reservists operated tanks and APCs in the past. With funding and kit, we have to the technology and know-how to make gun go shoot and engine go vroom.

The secret sauce in places like Sweden was a combination of:

Vehicles that, by design, were easy to learn.

Reserves made up of people that had done a year of "conscripted" training.

The Swedes considered the Leo superior because it was designed for conscripts to learn to use. Then they could focus on small unit tactics.

 

[Kirkhill]

And the Swedes were dragged back in every few years for two or three weeks in the field for refresher training.

I saw senior managers in foreign subsidiaries of Swedish companies pulled back to Sweden to do three weeks in the field as an infantryman (light, mech or armoured I don't know).

And on the subject of "light"...
Some seem to use the word light to describe any infantryman who doesn't have a vehicle. Others seem to use it to describe specialists in particular skill sets.

In foreign lands people in uniform find themselves standing in the rain and snow with a rifle guarding ports (sea, river and air), railway stations, power plants, dams, comms centres, government buildings etc.

Or conducting roving patrols of highways and harbours, canals and back alleys.

I don't know if you call those people infantrymen, light infantrymen or guards. The one word that, in my mind, describes them is "soldier".

Those are the jobs that the unpaid Home Guard volunteers of Denmark are signing up to do.

The government equips them and uses them to take the load off their full time army and police and to assist emergency services. They are largely responsible for their own training.

Some only do local service in emergencies. Some volunteer for quick reaction forces with extra training and take their rifles home with them. Some even go whole hog and volunteer for Special Forces training and make themselves available for deployment. Some get paid for those extra sevices.

43000 unpaid Danish soldiers.
Call it 280,000 Canadian equivalents.

And Denmark still has more "conscripts" (everyone) wiiling to serve full time in the regular forces than it has open positions. That is where the Danes find the Home Guard volunteers.

 

[KevinB]

I can have troops practice climbing, jumping, marching and shooting on a training night.

Not realistically.
While some places have fantastic climbing walls, none have systems that can be used with weather and winds.
Same for jumping - racks and AC drills is a minor part of the task.

Shooting needs to be not just on the static range, and needs to be done at night.

I can have troops practice driving a truck on a training night.

I can probably get troops to practice changing the oil or a tire in a training night.

I cant get troops pull an engine/powerpack strip it down, rebuild it, reinstall it and test it in a training night.

As you can see I’m not a fan of the training evening aspect. I’d rather can all those and get extra weekends, but frankly there needs to be more consecutive trainings periods - like 3-5 weeks annually.

Realistically that also points to why more trades and modular repair/replacement makes sense.
You should be able to pull and replace a power pack in a few hours - the guy pulling it doesn’t need to be the guy who strips or rebuilds it.
Some of those can be 3rd or 4th line. The same with FCS etc.

When is that ? A year of training nights away ? What if I cant make it ?

Ideally it can be any time - just slot into the active portion of the unit at a pre-set point, there are always some small gaps in full time positions due to either injury or things like parental leave.

Sure. I am all for turning the RegF Army into a CSS dominated world, it makes complete sense. But that's not going to happen.

Doesn’t have to be dominated, but definitely a heavier weighting than currently.

The ones I met and served alongside, amazing people. So much better than the Brits, fuck them. But really no better than our current ARes folks they just have more kit. Tons of heart and can do attitude. Loved it. Ill take a Dept of that any day and twice on Sundays.

Lots of kit, but also time and support for a vision.

Ya we need to get out of that way. Maybe put him with a driver examiner for a confirmation ride and call it a day.

You and your logic.

 

[KevinB]

And the Swedes were dragged back in every few years for two or three weeks in the field for refresher training.

I saw senior managers in foreign subsidiaries of Swedish companies pulled back to Sweden to do three weeks in the field as an infantryman (light, mech or armoured I don't know).

And on the subject of "light"...
Some seem to use the word light to describe any infantryman who doesn't have a vehicle. Others seem to use it to describe specialists in particular skill sets.

In foreign lands people in uniform find themselves standing in the rain and snow with a rifle guarding ports (sea, river and air), railway stations, power plants, dams, comms centres, government buildings etc.

Or conducting roving patrols of highways and harbours, canals and back alleys.

I don't know if you call those people infantrymen, light infantrymen or guards. The one word that, in my mind, describes them is "soldier".

The cynical would say Cannon Fodder
But yes that sort of role would be massive for Canada simply due to geographic size.

Those are the jobs that the unpaid Home Guard volunteers of Denmark are signing up to do.

The government equips them and uses them to take the load off their full time army and police and to assist emergency services. They are largely responsible for their own training.

Some only do local service in emergencies. Some volunteer for quick reaction forces with extra training and take their rifles home with them. Some even go whole hog and volunteer for Special Forces training and make themselves available for deployment. Some get paid for those extra sevices.

43000 unpaid Danish soldiers.
Call it 280,000 Canadian equivalents.

And Denmark still has more "conscripts" (everyone) wiiling to serve full time in the regular forces than it has open positions. That is where the Danes find the Home Guard volunteers.

Again totally different culture.
It would be nice if Canadians had the same outlook.

 

[Kirkhill]

The cynical would say Cannon Fodder
But yes that sort of role would be massive for Canada simply due to geographic size.

Again totally different culture.
It would be nice if Canadians had the same outlook.

Perhaps that is something all our wannabe social engineers could put their minds to.

And perhaps the government might want to harvest some of those

1,200,000,000 hours

that Canadians volunteered in 2023 per Stats Can.

National Volunteer Week - Statistics Canada

The pandemic has posed tremendous challenges to volunteer organizations, given the repeated lockdowns and re-openings during the various waves of infection. Particularly challenging is that seniors—Canada’s most dedicated volunteers in terms of hours committed⁠—were also among the most...

www.statcan.gc.ca

Are you sure about that "different culture"?

Or does the government just enable the culture differently?

 

[PrairieFella]

Where does that divide become too great ? Truckers and Light Inf is what the ARes should be.

So no reserve for the other trades when they start taking casualties? Not exactly a recipe for success.

 

[Kirkhill]

So no reserve for the other trades when they start taking casualties? Not exactly a recipe for success.

When the other trades start taking casualties the truckers and "light infantrymen" could have already started upgrading their skills to take on some of those vacant slots.

The important part is to get them in the door and engaged by the system.

It is also important, both for the system and the individual, to start getting useful work out of them as soon as possible, regardless of their level of training. That is what section leaders are for.

 

[PrairieFella]

When the other trades start taking casualties the truckers and "light infantrymen" could have already started upgrading their skills to take on some of those vacant slots.

At that point its too late for NCOs and to a lesser extent junior officers. That skillset needs to be in place prior to the start of the war otherwise youre looking at months-long lagtimes in institutional knowledge.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not realistically.
While some places have fantastic climbing walls, none have systems that can be used with weather and winds.
Same for jumping - racks and AC drills is a minor part of the task.

I want simple soldiering. Rifle, pack, field craft; go.

Anything more can be taught in WUP Trg. But come to WUP Trg proficient in the foundational skills. March - Shoot - Live

Shooting needs to be not just on the static range, and needs to be done at night.

Ranges should be a major part of this. Every training night should be fitness or ranges.

As you can see I’m not a fan of the training evening aspect. I’d rather can all those and get extra weekends, but frankly there needs to be more consecutive trainings periods - like 3-5 weeks annually.

I'm not either, but its where we are and I don't see this construct changing. Any of your ARes guys see us going away from training nights ?

Realistically that also points to why more trades and modular repair/replacement makes sense.
You should be able to pull and replace a power pack in a few hours - the guy pulling it doesn’t need to be the guy who strips or rebuilds it.
Some of those can be 3rd or 4th line. The same with FCS etc.

We have to play in reality Kev. Can a Res Svc Bn even pull a power pack from a TAPV ? How long does a 3rd line overhaul take ?

Ideally it can be any time - just slot into the active portion of the unit at a pre-set point, there are always some small gaps in full time positions due to either injury or things like parental leave.

Who is running this constant training cycle ?

Doesn’t have to be dominated, but definitely a heavier weighting than currently.

Doesn't have to be, but the smart Army puts if sustainers and enablers first. Winning a fight is easy, sustaining the victory is the hard part.

You and your logic.

You'd be first to accuse me of that lol

 

[Halifax Tar]

So no reserve for the other trades when they start taking casualties? Not exactly a recipe for success.

The current construct of ARes occupation management doesn't enable that now.

If the current ARes was designed to be the push for land based national mobilization it would have much different construct. Right now its designed to be part time RegF and fill individual holes for 6 month rotations.

 

[Halifax Tar]

How long is it taking the Ukraine to pump out Gunners, Tankers and Combat Engineers ?

 

[Furniture]

Perhaps that is something all our wannabe social engineers could put their minds to.

And perhaps the government might want to harvest some of those

1,200,000,000 hours

that Canadians volunteered in 2023 per Stats Can.

National Volunteer Week - Statistics Canada

The pandemic has posed tremendous challenges to volunteer organizations, given the repeated lockdowns and re-openings during the various waves of infection. Particularly challenging is that seniors—Canada’s most dedicated volunteers in terms of hours committed⁠—were also among the most...

www.statcan.gc.ca

Are you sure about that "different culture"?

Or does the government just enable the culture differently?

How many of those volunteer hours are parents volunteering with their kids activities? How many are charitable work? How do those types of volunteering in any way align with military capabilities/defence?

 

[Kirkhill]

At that point its too late for NCOs and to a lesser extent junior officers. That skillset needs to be in place prior to the start of the war otherwise youre looking at months-long lagtimes in institutional knowledge.

I agree on the Jr Ldr files. They need to be committed (some to an institution).

What I am talking about are the people that @KevinB derisively calls "cannon fodder". Those people are necessary in large numbers and yet in the Canadian Army there are something like 9,000 Privates in an army of some 54,000 TES.

That is 45,000 supervisors to cover off 9,000 soldiers.

1 Private
5 Supervisors

The Canadian Army needs truck drivers. It needs gate guards. It needs ammo carriers for C6s and CG84s.

It needs to be able to convert a peace time section of six to a wartime strength of 12. With twelve I can have a driver and a co-driver manning a CUAS machine gun and still have a full section of 10 with 2 jr ldrs, 2 MG gunners and 1 AT gunner with 5 riflemen/ammo-carriers.