Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?

[Stoker]

I've often wondered why the Naval Reserve doesn't employ the Air Reserve model.  All Reg Force trades are represented in the Air Reserve- you just can't really get trained in most of them while being Reservist. You have to come over from the Reg Force already trained.

We used to have ET's and medic's years ago. Most of the regs I know want nothing more to do with the military after they retire. That being said some trades can switch over, the ones that can't are the tech trades with the exception of MARENG.

 

[dapaterson]

Medics were lost to RX2000, which repatriated all medical trades to Health Services.  It was the beginning of the stovepiping the was followed by the MPs, and that the Int branch is likely going to try shortly.

 

[mikeninercharlie]

NAVRES medical personnel being cut had nothing to do with Rx2000, they were gone before that program kicked off. In the mid 90's here was a perceived issue of the med pers being unable to maintain their clinical skill sets by the MARCOM Surgeon. He had a choke on for the NAVRES for years and held the belief that patients were being endangered at home NRDs by substandard care after 1 or 2 questionable cases. When he finally got in to the big seat, the writing was on the wall. Unfortunately, his view wasn't shared by the folks who had the opportunity to have "shad medics" in their employ. Their basic course was equivalent to the RegF, many were nursing or medical students, and they could jump into any clinic and get the job done with minimal hassle. They same couldn't be said about the majority of Army reserve casualty aides... If you ever wondered where to medical positions ended up, look to the diving world

 

[Monsoon]

I've often wondered why the Naval Reserve doesn't employ the Air Reserve model.  All Reg Force trades are represented in the Air Reserve- you just can't really get trained in most of them while being Reservist. You have to come over from the Reg Force already trained.

I'm in full agreement with your sentiment: it's ridiculous that a PO2 NET can't be in NAVRES without retraining as something else. Surely he can do exactly as much refresher training on weekends and weeks at sea as any other trade; he just also happens to have years of prior Reg F experience to help mitigate the skill fade. At least now we have the General Service Officer/NCM trade to help facilitate switchovers, but why needlessly deprive people of the trade qualifications they work years to achieve that the RCN can still use?

I hope the solution that sees the reserve fully integrated into the RCN a la "One Navy" addresses this. Right now, the issue stems from NAVRES' position as a formation with an establishment for specific ranks and trades. The reality is that the majority of NAVRES positions at the PO1/LCdr and up ranks are effectively ATR as far as the formation is concerned (with the obvious exception of, say, trade instructors, comptrollers and ship COs). I think once NAVRES occupation/career management is merged with the RCN HQ/D Mil C-level and we start thinking of occupations as being the same regardless of whether a member is currently in the P Res or in the Reg F, then the apparent barriers to other trades being in the reserve will fall away.

Hopefully. There's a lot of change that has to happen between here and there, and it's just a matter of how long command intent stays swung in a "One Navy" direction.

 

[Infanteer]

I think once NAVRES occupation/career management is merged with the RCN HQ/D Mil C-level and we start thinking of occupations as being the same regardless of whether a member is currently in the P Res or in the Reg F, then the apparent barriers to other trades being in the reserve will fall away.

Really?  I never figured the Army Reserve would be ahead of you guys in anything, but it appears that they are.

 

[dapaterson]

Really?  I never figured the Army Reserve would be ahead of you guys in anything, but it appears that they are.

To be fair, Army Reserve trains a subset of the Reg F skillset (since not all skills can be maintained on a part-time basis).  Carefully documenting the delta means you know what you've got, which is part of the Army Res success- knowing what you don't know, so to speak.

The experiential delta is the big problem at higher ranks, though; civilian work experience can translate in some ways, but it's a huge variable.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

To be clear- I am not advocating Res W Eng techs be created from scratch in Nav Res.  I I think that would be too hard.  However, if one walks into your local NRD from the Reg F and says he wants to CT, surely the RCN could keep him as a W Eng and slap an R in front of his MOS?

 

[Monsoon]

Really?  I never figured the Army Reserve would be ahead of you guys in anything, but it appears that they are.

From what I understand, "career management", such as it is, in the Army Reserve is more or less the unit chain of command, (rather than the D Mil C-esque structure that NAVRES mirrors but isn't integrated with) so I assume you're talking about occupation management. I think in that case the advantage the Army Reserve has is that its occupations benefit from a strong "branch" culture - for instance, it's difficult for me to put my finger on who exactly would be the equivalent of, say, the Director of Artillery in the RCN. The Operations Branch Advisor, maybe? In the Army Reserve, there at least exists a few days a year in which D Arty is compelled to think about reserve artillery and what it does and doesn't do in relation to Reg F artillery (as dapaterson pointed out). I would hazard a guess that the number of days a year the RCN Ops Branch Advisor has spent thinking about the reserve component of the occupations in his branch has traditionally approached the low zero-digits, but this is surely as much NAVRES' fault as his.

What NAVRES needs to move away from is the happy place it inhabited when it took over the manning of the Kingston-class: essentially running a small shadow-navy with it's own parallel universe of "Occupation Managers" and "Branch Advisors" who could make training changes based on the needs of the Kingston-class in isolation. This culture spilled over to its Log and Int branch trades, but these are now being swiftly brought back into line, at least partially aided by the fact that those trades have reserve components in other environments. In fact these so-called NAVRES "Occupation Managers" and "Branch Advisors" need to recognize that what the are in a One Navy context is "Reserve Advisors" on their trade/branch.

As I say, I gather this is all in the process of unfolding. It will be interesting to see how it develops.

 

[dapaterson]

I hope it goes well for the RCN; I am concerned about the Int Branch desire to grow and expand regardless of need or ability (a curse that afflicts everyone).

And in my perfect world the Army would look outside its green borders to learn from the RCN; they do do some Reserve things very well; one hopes that the desire for some to earn "leading change" PER points won't override the needs of the institution.

 

[FSTO]

I hope it goes well for the RCN; I am concerned about the Int Branch desire to grow and expand regardless of need or ability (a curse that afflicts everyone).

I'm good buddies with a Reg Force LCdr Intelligence Officer at MARPAC. I should ask him to comment on the relationships between Intel officers who wear different DEU's. It's quite the relationship.

 

[Journeyman]

I am concerned about the Int Branch desire to grow and expand regardless of need or ability

I know they used to have a MWO that put effort into teaching analysis - "thinking about thinking."

Sorry, but I haven't seen a lot of it coming from the Int world on operations.

/tangent

 

[PuckChaser]

Sorry, but I haven't seen a lot of it coming from the Int world on operations.

/tangent

I've worked in it, and you're spot on save for a few blight lights that are shoved in a corner somewhere.

 

[Journeyman]

... save for a few blight lights ....

Freudian typo? 

 

[Infanteer]

What NAVRES needs to move away from is the happy place it inhabited when it took over the manning of the Kingston-class: essentially running a small shadow-navy with it's own parallel universe of "Occupation Managers" and "Branch Advisors" who could make training changes based on the needs of the Kingston-class in isolation. This culture spilled over to its Log and Int branch trades, but these are now being swiftly brought back into line, at least partially aided by the fact that those trades have reserve components in other environments. In fact these so-called NAVRES "Occupation Managers" and "Branch Advisors" need to recognize that what the are in a One Navy context is "Reserve Advisors" on their trade/branch.

Wow.  Never knew that...talk about needless excess HR management.  And I thought the Army had it bad with parallel Res chains in the Div and National HQ, but at least occupational management is under one roof.

 

[Monsoon]

Wow.  Never knew that...talk about needless excess HR management.  And I thought the Army had it bad with parallel Res chains in the Div and National HQ, but at least occupational management is under one roof.

Well, to be fair those Branch/Occupation Advisors are class "A" positions, and positions that do indeed need to exist as reserve advisors to the branch/trade. The problem now is in how they see their role and who they work predominantly with (i.e. not with the RCN-level branch/occupation advisors). Once that realignment happens, things will be better positioned for success.

 

[Mike5]

The discussion seems constrained by existing rules and approaches.  Consider something outside the box:

- In the major centres you have a supply of skilled tradespeople and professionals, who are largely available evenings, weekends and two to four weeks a year.  What could you do with a pool of  surgeons / criminal lawyers / firefighters / mechanics / accountants if you only ever had them evenings / weekends / one month a year?  Are there things that the RCN would like to do -- things that are not being done now but would further the mission of the RCN -- and do not require extended training and annual committments of four months of seatime?

- If the answer is 'No, everything the RCN should do unfortunately requires extended periods away', then the RCN should probably focus Reserve recruiting efforts on the only demographic that can consistently deliver extended periods away from work: teachers and other similar seasonal workers.

Rather then 'One Navy'  I would like to see a 'Greater Navy' with a broader scope of operations.  I am WAY outside my lane here so would appreciate critical thoughts,

Regards,

 

[Stoker]

The discussion seems constrained by existing rules and approaches.  Consider something outside the box:

- In the major centres you have a supply of skilled tradespeople and professionals, who are largely available evenings, weekends and two to four weeks a year.  What could you do with a pool of  surgeons / criminal lawyers / firefighters / mechanics / accountants if you only ever had them evenings / weekends / one month a year?  Are there things that the RCN would like to do -- things that are not being done now but would further the mission of the RCN -- and do not require extended training and annual committments of four months of seatime?

- If the answer is 'No, everything the RCN should do unfortunately requires extended periods away', then the RCN should probably focus Reserve recruiting efforts on the only demographic that can consistently deliver extended periods away from work: teachers and other similar seasonal workers.

Rather then 'One Navy'  I would like to see a 'Greater Navy' with a broader scope of operations.  I am WAY outside my lane here so would appreciate critical thoughts,

Regards,

When I joined we saw quite a few teachers and lawyers join usually as officers and they were able to deploy for a few months during the summer. The biggest demographic is students that did the training nights and deployed for several months during the summer to make money for school. This worked on the old Gate Vessels, they only really sailed during the summer, except for the "Gate Vessel" weekends during the year. The Gates did their thing (basic seamanship) and we were known as summer shads or weekend warriors and generally lacked any respect from the regs. With the MCDV's we were now given an operational role and deployed with mostly full time and a few part time pers and during the summer we get the students. Most of us full time people want to stay and won't go back to the units. If the regs were smart we would be rolled over to the regs on a 5 or 10 year contract and made class specific or until we complete delta training to go the rest of the fleet. This way some billets would not have to be manned by the major ships, we could even continue on to A/OPS when the KIN class are paid off. Along with not wanting to lose our employmemt, I don't want to see a reversal of the hard won respect the MCDV pers have from the regs now. Going back to a part time organization, that does the odd ORCA weekend and is not allowed to progress in the mainstream is shortsighted, done right there is room for both.

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in my father's papers from the war. Not sure who wrote it. He served on HMCS FUNDY ( J88 ),  HMCS LOCKEPORT ( J100 ), HMCS UNGAVA ( J149 ), HMCS FORT ERIE ( K670 ) and enjoyed traveling to Art Apps naval reunions across Canada. He hosted one year in Toronto, and I got to meet some of them.
I think it was one of the songs they sang?

This poem / song is about the wartime  Canadian Naval Reserve. Not the present day. It is posted for historical interest only. Posted "as is" ( a bit "salty" in parts. I XX'd one particular word I thought was in poor taste. )

THE SWAN SONG OF THE RESERVIST

The war's over and we're in clover
    We leave the job to you;
This is no guff, it's safe enough,
    We've shown you what to do.

With telescopes at proper slopes,
    And hankies up your sleeves,
Just pace the decks of painted wrecks.
    In jackets made at Gieves.

With brand new ships and salty dips,
    With half rings gained ashore,
Don't tell us how to do it now,
    Or how you won the war.

Oh - it's V.R.'s for the V.R.'s,
    And Gins for the R.C.N.
Who stayed ashore throughout the war,
    And now sail forth again.

The Winters cruise and lots of booze,
    And awnings aft and fore;
Is all you'll do the whole year through,
    Till you go back ashore.

To buxom gXXh with lots of cash,
    And scheming maiden aunts,
You shoot the flannel about the channel,
    And hostile coasts of France.

Lord God Almighty you've never seen Blighty,
    Where did that accent come from?
It must be schools and manning pools
    And draughts of pusser rum.

From the V.R.'s and the N.R.'s
    Here's a toast to the R.C.N.
Come times of stress and deep duress
    We'll take the strain again.

Author unknown.

Note: V.R. during the war did not mean what it does now.

 

[CougarKing]

A new role for the naval reserves?

Naval Today

New security unit to protect Canadian Navy ships on deployment

The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is developing a new capability called the Naval Security Team (NST) that will be tasked with protecting Canadian Navy ships and sailors while on deployment.

According to the navy, NST will be composed primarily of naval reservists and will include a full-time command team to ensure personnel, training and equipment are available for deployment.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Not really a new role, more like an extension of an existing one: An enhanced harbour defence Unit, so to speak. I suspect it would be something akin to the difference between a ship's boarding team and the new Enhanced Naval Boarding Party Team 1.

What worries me far more in this scheme is the maintenance of the operational readiness level. I just can't see that level of performance being maintained with part time reservists. First of all, if you trained 30 to 50 actual "part-time" reservists, you would not be able to deploy more than about ten to fifteen of them on less than 6 months notice, and even then. Even for long planned exercises, we had to build up some harbour defence team with members from other teams to fill the ranks.

On the other hand, if you select those 30 to 50, train them up to high standard and keep them active for available service, you are creating yet another reserve "permanent" manned situation, like the MCDV.

I have asked the question before, and never got a proper response: At which point does a reservist who spends his life in actual service become a regular?