Is the CF going to close Borden?

[Colin Parkinson]

If more than 85% of the buildings have recently been rebuilt, the odds of being closed are very high. We used to say: "if they are putting a new roof on your building, your hooped" just like, put new engine in vehicle, drive for one month, the cost of replacing windshield causes the vehicle to be surplus ed as it's reached the "maximum allowable repairs for type"

 

[Kat Stevens]

Anyone who thinks Borden (or Kingston) wouldn't get closed due to sheer numbers of units and pers, were obviously not in Lahr when the "going out of business" signs went up shortly after the new CFHE and 4 ADR compound were built.  CDF has nothing to do with base closures.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Anyone who thinks Borden (or Kingston) wouldn't get closed due to sheer numbers of units and pers, were obviously not in Lahr when the "going out of business" signs went up shortly after the new CFHE and 4 ADR compound were built.  CDF has nothing to do with base closures.

However, the closing of Lahr and Baden was part of the "peace dividend" that we experienced with the fall of the Soviet Empire. Nothing similar is taking place, just the opposite in fact. Plus, the citizens of Lahr and Baden didn't get to vote in Canadian elections.

 

[armyvern]

Anyone who thinks Borden (or Kingston) wouldn't get closed due to sheer numbers of units and pers, were obviously not in Lahr when the "going out of business" signs went up shortly after the new CFHE and 4 ADR compound were built.  CDF has nothing to do with base closures.

Closing Borden would be the purple trades, Air Force (CFSATE, ACA), and Hlth Svcs equivelant of shutting down modern day CTC.

When they close these two bases, that means the NDP are running the nation.

 

[a_majoor]

Closing CFB London and moving 1 RCR to Petawawa also happened after a big burst of base construction and refurbishment. I don't recall the details now, but it seemed pretty clear that it was a "P"olitical decision (London had been announced as being on the chopping block before), and whoever was protecting the base had moved on.

 

[SeanNewman]

The CF has a base in Borden? 

If there are no Reg Force infantry battalions there how can they possibly survive?

 

[Edward Campbell]

Why don’t we start with the bases we absolutely need:

1. Navy –

• One on each coast, Esquimalt and Halifax will do nicely.
• Do we need one in the Arctic?

2. Army –

• Four, for the time being, anyway, major bases/training centres, Edmonton/Wainwright, Petawawa, ValCartier and Gagetown will do.

3. Air Force –

• One on each coast, for maritime patrol, Comox and Greenwood will do but should or could operations at Greenwood be move (back?) to Halifax/Shearwater?

• One each in Western and Eastern Canada for continental air defence, Cold Lake and Bagotville will do nicely. But couldn’t North Bay be collocated with either or, for survivability sake, both B’ville and/or Cold Lake?

• One major transport base; it’s currently Trenton but it could be e.g. Edmonton or Winnipeg.

• West, Central and East SAR bases, Comox, Edmonton, Trenton (or Downsview?), Bagotville  and Greenwood or Halifax all come to mind.

• Training Bases like Moose Jaw and Winnipeg. Do we need both?

4. National –

• Ottawa.
• We also need a few ‘stations’ here and there: Masset, Aldergrove, Inuvik, Alert, Ottawa/Leitrim, Mill Cove and Gander, for example.
• RMC + Fort Frontenac at Kingston and La Citadel in Québec City are staying for good, sound historical reasons.
• A single joint Arctic base for Navy and Air operations? Where?

So, from that, what do we not need? 

Suffield? Shilo? (I would want both as reserve force training areas, but …) Edmonton, if we could build/expand Wainwright to something akin to Petawawa? Moose Jaw, if we could expand Winnipeg? Winnipeg, if we could expand Moose Jaw? Borden? Trenton, if either Edmonton or Winnipeg could do the job? North Bay? Kingston, other than RMC? Greenwood, if Halifax Shearwater will do?


Edited to add: and I'm asking, not advocating.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Edmonton has most of the cmbt  units and none of the training area, while Shilo has some of the units and a training area.  As mush as it sucks Wainwright is the more obvious choice if your rounding all the western units into one place.

 

[Old Sweat]

Life ain't fair, and nowhere more so than in Army of the West, and the rest of the CF in Western Canada. The time and space of the distribtution of the CF means that the majority of the forces will be located in the eastern three time zones. Even the demographic shift in population and fiscal power to the western three time zones probably won't change that too much. There are exceptions, primarily in the maritime and fighter forces, but the majority of the operational forces and the individual training world (and its client) base is in the east. I suggest that isn't going to change anytime soon.

For example, consider if we could pick up CFB Borden and drop it in Winnipeg. What would the extra lost productivity from increased travel time and the costs involved be? (Having said that, I flew from Otawa to Winnipeg and back in January for $280.00, while a round trip to Gagetown in May was $650.00.)

 

[Infanteer]

It appears to me that, over a generation, soldiers have changed in their expectations.  As I understand it, a generation ago most soldiers, single and married, lived on base.  Much of one's life revolved around base functions (like the mess) and bases scattered around in small communities were the norm with bases being largely self-sufficient.

Nowadays, service personnel, both single and married, largely prefered garrisons in larger cities.  Take for example Edmonton and Shilo.  Although no difference between battalions, Shilo is (from my experience in training centers) viewed as the less desirable of the two.  Single soldiers want a decent nightlife while families want a decent housing market, employment oppurtunies for spouses, and a variety of services.  Both seem to enjoy the oppurtunity to leave the base and not see another soldier everywhere they go.

Service culture seems to point to the model of unit garrisons near large towns/cities with training areas not necessarily being attached.  Moving 1 CMBG en masse to Wainwright would probably drive a majority of the members of 1 CMBG as well as the civilian residents of Wainwright up the wall as large Army garrisons, with their large populations of young, alpha males are often "drunken elephants" in small communities.

 

[SeanNewman]

I am 100% with Infanteer, and every younger person I speak to at work about it seems to agree.

The Army seems to be really shooting themselves in the foot retention-wise by going to the super bases.  Take The RCR for example...in the past I could be posted to London or Germany among other options.  What are my choices now?  Petawawa where my wife had to fight for the minimum wage job scraps, or Oromocto where she can't find a decent job because she's not bilingual.

Plus, what in the heck is a 20 year old soldier going to do in Pet on his time off?  Don't try to sell me on Ottawa being "close", either, because a 4-hour round trip is far from close.  In Oromocto at least Fredericton nearby is okay, but that's a far cry from what something like London has to offer.

What you end up with are troops drinking in the shacks and playing video games on the weekend, and getting out after three years because there's nothing to spend your money on but new cars and pizza.

 

[armyvern]

Service culture seems to point to the model of unit garrisons near large towns/cities with training areas not necessarily being attached.  Moving 1 CMBG en masse to Wainwright would probably drive a majority of the members of 1 CMBG as well as the civilian residents of Wainwright up the wall as large Army garrisons, with their large populations of young, alpha males are often "drunken elephants" in small communities.

And yet, Petawawa makes out just fine in this respect. It certainly isn't the end of the world.

But, I do agree - seems that there has been a shift - service requirements/effeciency are not necessarily the ground factors in the decision making process anymore.

 

[armyvern]

What you end up with are troops drinking in the shacks and playing video games on the weekend, and getting out after three years because there's nothing to spend your money on but new cars and pizza.

I was here as a Pte. I'm still in 22 years later. In the Mess on Friday night - it was like old home week seeing all the youngsters I was here with as a Pte.

Differences in generations I guess. I wonder why that occured? I think, it's because we let it. A long time ago the CF became about "personal wants" vice service needs. A little slack was given in the system ... and they took it and they ran with it; that "slack" now equals "what can the CF do for me" and if I don't like whatever it is, "I'll just get otu then". Good- Here's your posting message and your release paperwork: choose one.

 

[SeanNewman]

And yet, Petawawa makes out just fine in this respect. It certainly isn't the end of the world.

Yes, the town of Petawawa consisting of the Chamber of Commerce that looks remarkably similar to the owners of the car dealerships make out well.

Petawawa has more money in it than any other town of 15,000 people in Canada, but less to offer the residents than any other city in Canada with 15,000.  For a town where your poorest person makes $40,000/yr, there should be a Costco, Silver City, and Future Shop right in Pet.  But nope, it takes 1/2 hour just to get to a Canadian Tire.

Work-wise Pet is great, but quality-of-life wise it is terrible.  It's only acceptable for parents with kids 5-10 because there are a lot of sports and activities, but there's nothing to do for single people, nothing to do for married couples with no kids, and nothing to do for teenagers. 

Also, some people will sell the "outdoorsy life" available near Petawawa, but find me anywhere inhabited in Canada that isn't 1/2 hour from camping, a river or lake.

Added - Consider this, as a Royal Canadian, my quality of life has gone up five-fold moving to Oromocto.  What does that say about Petawawa?  Just like the rest of Canada, I am now close to basic stores, more than one restaurant, and a movie theatre made in the last 50 years.  I am willing to sacrifice $1,000/mo to live here (LDA + provincial tax), which is terrible because someone in the Army shouldn't have to make that choice.  I couldn't imagine having spent the last 5 years in Pet if I was single.

 

[armyvern]

Yes, the town of Petawawa consisting of the Chamber of Commerce that looks remarkably similar to the owners of the car dealerships make out well.

Petawawa has more money in it than any other town of 15,000 people in Canada, but less to offer the residents than any other city in Canada with 15,000.  For a town where your poorest person makes $40,000/yr, there should be a Costco, Silver City, and Future Shop right in Pet.  But nope, it takes 1/2 hour just to get to a Canadian Tire.

Work-wise Pet is great, but quality-of-life wise it is terrible.  It's only acceptable for parents with kids 5-10 because there are a lot of sports and activities, but there's nothing to do for single people, nothing to do for married couples with no kids, and nothing to do for teenagers. 

Also, some people will sell the "outdoorsy life" available near Petawawa, but find me anywhere inhabited in Canada that isn't 1/2 hour from camping, a river or lake.

Added - Consider this, as a Royal Canadian, my quality of life has gone up five-fold moving to Oromocto.  What does that say about Petawawa?  Just like the rest of Canada, I am now close to basic stores, more than one restaurant, and a movie theatre made in the last 50 years.  I am willing to sacrifice $1,000/mo to live here (LDA + provincial tax), which is terrible because someone in the Army shouldn't have to make that choice.  I couldn't imagine having spent the last 5 years in Pet if I was single.

I have been single too you know while serving.

If a single guy chooses to sit in the shacks playing video games with his time --- that's his problem, not the CFs.

I am a firm believer that a posting is what you make of it; the ratio seems to be getting higher now of those who choose to bitch and whine (and get out) instead of making something of it. And guess what too, we from back in those days, didn't even have the option of sitting in the shacks here in Pet playing video games to take up all that "dead" time --- yet here we are still --- doing just fine.

So, the problem is where & who's again?

 

[SeanNewman]

If a single guy chooses to sit in the shacks playing video games with his time --- that's his problem, not the CFs.

So, the problem is where & who's again?

Vern,

The problem in Pet is that there is no viable option like there is even in Oromocto with Fredericton 15-20 minutes away.

In Petawawa a guy can either go to the Warehouse to see all of the other guys they work with, or go to Yogi's and see everyone they work for.

You make some valid points that the Army (as society has) become more about takers than givers, but I don't think that is relevant to the discussion here.

 

[armyvern]

Vern,

The problem in Pet is that there is no viable option like there is even in Oromocto with Fredericton 15-20 minutes away.

In Petawawa a guy can either go to the Warehouse to see all of the other guys they work with, or go to Yogi's and see everyone they work for.

You make some valid points that the Army (as society has) become more about takers than givers, but I don't think that is relevant to the discussion here.

Look, there's people in here stating that this makes them "get out."

I'm saying - 22 years ago we had even less to do here ... and we're still in.

Thus, the "I'll get out if you post me to Pet or location XXX" is usually bullshit." Call 'em on it - "Here's your posting message, here's the release paperwork: choose ONE; you are not special." If they do get out, Oh well ... that makes room for someone to join who actually is interested in doing their job where the CF needs (and officially requires) them to do their job.

People use that line these days exactly because "we" allow them to - and they get away with it now as the rule, not the exception.

 

[Infanteer]

Although quality of life is usually perceived as better in the large cities, I don't think it's a major factor in retention issues.  I don't have access to any statistics, but units in Edmonton hemorrage guys too - all for the same reasons as the small-town garrisons.

 

[Kat Stevens]

But you're ignoring the other half of the cultural shift, Vern.  When I was a young sapper 30 years ago, getting to the mess at opening time on a Saturday or Sunday, and drinking till either we closed the place, or the Jolly Miller opened up (Saturday only, no Sunday beer then!), was both reasonable and acceptable at all rank levels.  If there was nothing else to do but get pissed every night, then by God, getting pissed is what we'd do.  These days there is much less of that mentality among the young troops, and far less tolerance for it with the grownups.  In my younger days, out of a Troop of 30 guys, it was pretty common for at least 15 of them to be in the pub for beers after work.  My last few years in the army, you would hard pressed to get 5 out, they've all got other stuff to do.  Except, y'know, in places where they don't.

 

[OldSolduer]

Look, there's people in here stating that this makes them "get out."

I'm saying - 22 years ago we had even less to do here ... and we're still in.

Thus, the "I'll get out if you post me to Pet or location XXX" is usually bullshit." Call 'em on it - "Here's your posting message, here's the release paperwork: choose ONE; you are not special." If they do get out, Oh well ... that makes room for someone to join who actually is interested in doing their job where the CF needs (and officially requires) them to do their job.

People use that line these days exactly because "we" allow them to - and they get away with it now as the rule, not the exception.

I agree. Refuse a posting and the COS date becomes your release date.