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Islam and Western Society

Force said:
why would you say that... I was just highlighting that its not true that the locals are sleeping on gas and doing nothing. I just said that they are fighting well. That doesnt mean that we should not help them lol.. Im just saying that its not us that are doing the biggest damage on isis and we have to give credit to the locals instead of saying they are doing nothing.

Then gather all the fighting age men and women in your community and giddy up.

People are tired of going to fight in an attempt to make things better there, when your own, here and there, do nothing. At least nothing substantial.

Sorry, I'm wrong. :facepalm: They are doing something. Radicals in your community are indoctrinating people and sending them to fight for ISIS (IL) and you're not turning them in or forcing them out.

And if you think that our coalition is not doing more than your own there? Well, Kat already answered that. I dispute the fact that we are not killing more of them than yours. You're being taken in by your own propaganda.
 
recceguy said:
Then gather all the fighting age men and women in your community and giddy up.

People are tired of going to fight in an attempt to make things better there, when your own, here and there, do nothing. At least nothing substantial.

Sorry, I'm wrong. :facepalm: They are doing something. Radicals in your community are indoctrinating people and sending them to fight for ISIS (IL) and you're not turning them in or forcing them out.

And if you think that our coalition is not doing more than your own there? Well, Kat already answered that. I dispute the fact that we are not killing more of them than yours. You're being taken in by your own propaganda.
It is the sunnis that get brainwashed into joining isis in their saudi funded mosques. Why would I be the one responsible to containt their actions? Just because I'm muslim? 1.5 billion people are muslims and from different communities that have entire different ways of living, you cannot put the whole muslim world as a single entity. I am lebanese, and for example here in canada it's mostly the north african sunnis that tend to hold the saudi wahhabi ideology. They don't live the same way I do and I have no connections with them and it's not even the same community. if they get brainwashed in their saudi funded mosques then I bear more responsability than you over their actions?
As to why I am not in lebanon fighting... well my father ran away from lebanon when it was under occupation and couldnt find work nor go back to his house, and went to Congo and I was born there. Then a civil war erupted in Congo and we came to Canada. I was raised and educated here, what do I have in lebanon? You can't even find a job there unless you have connections with the corrupted government officials. Why would I leave Canada? And if I am against isis but stay in Canada then I am a coward? I can't have an opinion unless I act? What do you want us to do when we don't even have governments and when our countries are packed with gangs and corrupted governments? The middle east is a peace of cake that is getting divided between the usa russia and iran and the people are powerless.
 
Force said:
why would you say that... I was just highlighting that its not true that the locals are sleeping on gas and doing nothing. I just said that they are fighting well. That doesnt mean that we should not help them lol.. Im just saying that its not us that are doing the biggest damage on isis and we have to give credit to the locals instead of saying they are doing nothing.

This sounds very much to me like you're saying our aircraft are having no effect, the locals are tearing ISIS up, so our aircraft are irrelevant. I never said the locals weren't carrying a substantial piece of the load.  I'm not trying to get into a fight with you at all, just trying to clarify what you said below.

Force said:
So far the syrian army and the local civilian legions that are defending each village are the ones that inflicted the heaviest losses on isis and al nusra, followed by the Iraqi army. in bahrain for example, it's the fourth year of protests against the bahraini royal family, they are still getting shot at everyday in the protests. You think the peiple do nothing over there but you hve no idea how hard it is to make a change, people are dying every day fighting for their rights. Me for example because I got raised here and I live here and I am a canadian citizen, I want to join the canadian army because I like its values. So far the coalition against isis changed absolutely nothing on the ground exept maybe in kobani. The strikes are not effective at all. On the other hand, THOUSANDS of isis terrorists are dying each month under the hands of the syrian and iraqi people. We are living a luxury life here we don't know what its like to live poverty and a survival life. World powers are playing geopolitical wars on the middle eastern lands and its the civil population that is paying the price, it is not true that they are not trying, its a huge mess over there.
 
Force said:
In my opinion, fighting the islamic terrorists shiuld not be done only by force. The best way is to track the people who fund them, and the people who recruit them, and the people who promote wahhabism(wahhabism is radical islam that got created in he 19th century in saudi arabia, with the alliance of the saudi family and muhammad ibn wahhab). This form of islam rejects anything that is against it, beginning with muslims themselves. So once saudi arabia and qatar stop promoting wahhabism and funding those groups, they will dissapear automatically within a few months. How is isis surviving in syria and irak? Who gives them ammunitions? Who gives them sophisticated anti-tank weapons? These are the main questions that have to be answered. Why is Turkey still recieving them from all over the world and dispatching them in syria and irak? Turkey have no control over its borders?

Pitter patter, time for you to get at 'er.

Look, you're making some pretty good observations, however, the Muslim community at large is not doing any more than you. Everyone is aware of most of the problems, but the Muslims are waiting for someone else to clean their yard.

The ones in the ME don't have a choice, fight, die or live as slaves. Around the rest of the world, they won't go and help. They're comfortable and reasonably safe from harm, so they don't do anything.

It's time the Muslims, world wide, picked up their garden tools and did their own landscaping. The longer we hear platitudes without action from your community, the more people will think that you're not really serious about ridding yourselves of this burden.

The world is more than happy to help you, however it's up to you to take the lead and start sorting out the ME yourselves.
 
Force said:
It is the sunnis that get brainwashed into joining isis in their saudi funded mosques. Why would I be the one responsible to containt their actions? Just because I'm muslim? 1.5 billion people are muslims and from different communities that have entire different ways of living, you cannot put the whole muslim world as a single entity. I am lebanese, and for example here in canada it's mostly the north african sunnis that tend to hold the saudi wahhabi ideology. They don't live the same way I do and I have no connections with them and it's not even the same community. if they get brainwashed in their saudi funded mosques then I bear more responsability than you over their actions?
As to why I am not in lebanon fighting... well my father ran away from lebanon when it was under occupation and couldnt find work nor go back to his house, and went to Congo and I was born there. Then a civil war erupted in Congo and we came to Canada. I was raised and educated here, what do I have in lebanon? You can't even find a job there unless you have connections with the corrupted government officials. Why would I leave Canada? And if I am against isis but stay in Canada then I am a coward? I can't have an opinion unless I act? What do you want us to do when we don't even have governments and when our countries are packed with gangs and corrupted governments? The middle east is a peace of cake that is getting divided between the usa russia and iran and the people are powerless.

But you think WE should go and sort it out.

This is exactly what I've been driving at. Don't stand on the corner saying "Don't hate us because we're here and Muslim. We agree with you. Those guys over there are crazy bad."

But you leave it to us to try and clean it up for you.

How about petitioning the government to prevent Saudi Arabia from funding every Wahhabi mosque outside the ME. How about sending money to the Kurds? You lost your countries because everyone that could, fled instead of fighting for what was theirs. That fault lies with no one else except those that lived there. 

If you're (the Muslim community at large) not willing to put solid action behind your words, quit talking and expecting non Muslims to sort out your shit for you.

 
The Saudi's are funding mosques in Canada, one just opened in North Vancouver, that money always comes with strings attached.
 
Hamish Seggie said:
Being PC is biting us in the a$$. If we can't identify them as "Islamic Terrorists" without being attacked by our OWN side (media and fuzzy headed people who think hot chocolate and hugs solve every problem) we are fighting with one hand tied behind our collective backs.

I have no problem calling them all terrorists. If they are not, they can prove it to me, not visa versa.

We live in a sad, dangerous and factioned world. Those on the other side are adept at deception. All they do is make me dubious of their peaceful, normal, leave me out of this shit, brothers and sisters. I don't know who to trust as a result and refuse to become a trusting victim to their treachery. Everyone one gets treated like an enemy until I can discern otherwise.

It's time for them to rise up as a religion and take a stand against those who would corrupt and defile their beliefs to gain superiority over the rest of the world.

That is their problem firstly, and only secondary for us. However, I have no doubt that if it reaches our shores, in it's present configuration, the local Muslims, that only voiced platitudes, are going to get targeted by the general population, for their inaction to stop the problem of their own making.
 
recceguy said:
I have no problem calling them all terrorists. If they are not, they can prove it to me, not visa versa.

We live in a sad, dangerous and factioned world. Those on the other side are adept at deception. All they do is make me dubious of their peaceful, normal, leave me out of this shit, brothers and sisters. I don't know who to trust as a result and refuse to become a trusting victim to their treachery. Everyone one gets treated like an enemy until I can discern otherwise.

It's time for them to rise up as a religion and take a stand against those who would corrupt and defile their beliefs to gain superiority over the rest of the world.

That is their problem firstly, and only secondary for us. However, I have no doubt that if it reaches our shores, in it's present configuration, the local Muslims, that only voiced platitudes, are going to get targeted by the general population, for their inaction to stop the problem of their own making.

And that's what the islamoturds are waiting for, massive backlash against any and all Muslims, providing them a huge pool of recruits to draw from without getting their own hands dirty.
 
Kat Stevens said:
And that's what the islamoturds are waiting for, massive backlash against any and all Muslims, providing them a huge pool of recruits to draw from without getting their own hands dirty.

Then we can start to identify them.

When the locals see themselves threatened, they will have no compunction but to turn on their own. So far they've, for the majority, shown themselves as cowards for not turning in those in their midst that would do us harm, even when they suspect them. They need to stand up and be counted, whatever the consequence.

We've carried the fight too long and lost too many of our own for them.

If they want us to trust them, it's time for them to start doing the same, as Canadians.
 
The biggest mistake we ever made was to listen to the PC soft headed crowd.
"Oh you can't profile, its racist, so sixty year old Canadian grandmothers have to subjected to searches, just like the 20 something punk"

 
As a muslim canadian, I dont feel any need to prove to anyone that I am not a terrorist. If anyone has a complaint we can sort it out in court and the judge will tell you if I am a terrorist or not. It is your own responsability to do your research and discover that muslims are not terrorists. ISIS/al qaeda are mercenaries that are getting funded by certain countries for political and geostrategical reasons. Someone buys their oil, someone gives them weapons, someone trains them, and someone gives them missions. And that someone is certainly not the Coran. Using and deforming religion to recruit soldiers and advance political agendas is a mean that existed since the beginning of time. Books do not tell you to attack this or that country, politics, greed, and interests do. So enough with this childish talk about islam and muslims. If you are convinced that the majority of the 1.5 billion muslims are being thought to hate the non-muslims, that is your own problem and it is only a proof to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know that islam is a peaceful religion because that's what i learned from it.

-Just for your own information, everyone in the canadian army, or in any army in the world is doing ''jihad''. The word ''jihad'' is scary today but by definition you are all doing jihad. Defending your country is jihad, beheading is terrorism. 
 
Force said:
As a muslim canadian, I dont feel any need to prove to anyone that I am not a terrorist. If anyone has a complaint we can sort it out in court and the judge will tell you if I am a terrorist or not. It is your own responsability to do your research and discover that muslims are not terrorists. ISIS/al qaeda are mercenaries that are getting funded by certain countries for political and geostrategical reasons. Someone buys their oil, someone gives them weapons, someone trains them, and someone gives them missions. And that someone is certainly not the Coran. Using and deforming religion to recruit soldiers and advance political agendas is a mean that existed since the beginning of time. Books do not tell you to attack this or that country, politics, greed, and interests do. So enough with this childish talk about islam and muslims. If you are convinced that the majority of the 1.5 billion muslims are being thought to hate the non-muslims, that is your own problem and it is only a proof to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know that islam is a peaceful religion because that's what i learned from it.

-Just for your own information, everyone in the canadian army, or in any army in the world is doing ''jihad''. The word ''jihad'' is scary today but by definition you are all doing jihad. Defending your country is jihad, beheading is terrorism.

Really? Do tell;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad
 
Kat Stevens said:
Really? Do tell;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad
''Muslims and scholars do not all agree on its definition''

''Javed Ghamidi states that there is consensus amongst Islamic scholars that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against wrong doers''

Wrong doers can be Bashar or George W Bush, or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, or Putin, or it can be anyone that is against ISIS,  it all depends on your political agenda. It also can be to simply fight against oppression, witch is the real meaning.
 
Force said:
As a muslim canadian, I dont feel any need to prove to anyone that I am not a terrorist. If anyone has a complaint we can sort it out in court and the judge will tell you if I am a terrorist or not. It is your own responsability to do your research and discover that muslims are not terrorists. ISIS/al qaeda are mercenaries that are getting funded by certain countries for political and geostrategical reasons. Someone buys their oil, someone gives them weapons, someone trains them, and someone gives them missions. And that someone is certainly not the Coran. Using and deforming religion to recruit soldiers and advance political agendas is a mean that existed since the beginning of time. Books do not tell you to attack this or that country, politics, greed, and interests do. So enough with this childish talk about islam and muslims. If you are convinced that the majority of the 1.5 billion muslims are being thought to hate the non-muslims, that is your own problem and it is only a proof to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know that islam is a peaceful religion because that's what i learned from it.

-Just for your own information, everyone in the canadian army, or in any army in the world is doing ''jihad''. The word ''jihad'' is scary today but by definition you are all doing jihad. Defending your country is jihad, beheading is terrorism.

No-one is asking you to prove you're not a terrorist.  What is pissing us off and you seem to be missing the point is that these POS that are committing these acts of barbarism and want to take over the world are YOUR co-religerants.  They are part of YOUR faith, and are using YOUR faith as a tool to terrorise and assimilate all they can get their mitts on.  President al-Sisi of Egypt made an excellent speech to the rest of your faith who occupy this planet along with us.  It is mentioned here, I suggest you take the time to find it and read.  What we want, the rest of us, is for you as a Muslim to take back your faith from those who defile it.  As you have mentioned they are doing harm to other Muslims where they can. 

It seems as if at the drop of a hat, or cartoon that offends, streets are mobbed by baying crowds demanding heads be chopped off.  Well, you want our respect and assistance, then lets see those crowds baying in the streets, worldwide, against ISIS, Boko Haram et al.  What they are doing is indeed Haram as was explained to me by my wife (who is Muslim by the way).  All I see, is, well, silence from the majority.  And that speaks louder than words do and smacks of tacit approval of what they're (ISIS) are doing. 

There, that should be pretty clear to you, I hope.
 
Force said:
''Muslims and scholars do not all agree on its definition''

''Javed Ghamidi states that there is consensus amongst Islamic scholars that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against wrong doers''

Wrong doers can be Bashar or George W Bush, or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, or Putin, or it can be anyone that is against ISIS,  it all depends on your political agenda. It also can be to simply fight against oppression, witch is the real meaning.

Force,  I posted this above.  Please read it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

It actually expalins a lot and why this has to be treated as a religious issue both for muslims and the rest of the world. 
 
Crantor said:
Force,  I posted this above.  Please read it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

It actually expalins a lot and why this has to be treated as a religious issue both for muslims and the rest of the world.
it's true that religion is the driving force of the terrorists, but as I said that is only the recruitment tool. Who is giving them weapons and buying their oil? Why is Turkey still recieving tens of thousands of them from all over the world and dispatching them in Syra and Irak? Your article has logical flaws. A huge organisation like isis does not pop out of nowhere without logistical help from neighbors.
Wahhabism is named after an eighteenth century preacher and scholar, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703–1792).[16] He started a revivalist movement in the remote, sparsely populated region of Najd,[17] advocating a purging of practices such as the popular cult of saints, and shrine and tomb visitation, widespread among Muslims, but which he considered idolatry, impurities and innovations in Islam.[5][18] Eventually he formed a pact with a local leader Muhammad bin Saud offering political obedience and promising that protection and propagation of the Wahhabi movement, would mean "power and glory" and rule of "lands and men."[19] The movement is centered on the principle of Tawhid,[20] or the "uniqueness" and "unity" of God.[18]

The alliance between followers of ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad bin Saud's successors (the House of Saud) proved to be a rather durable alliance. The house of bin Saud continued to maintain its politico-religious alliance with the Wahhabi sect through the waxing and waning of its own political fortunes over the next 150 years, through to its eventual proclamation of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932, and then afterwards, on into modern times. Today Mohammed bin Abd Al-Wahhab's teachings are state-sponsored and are the dominant form of Islam[3][21] in 21st century Saudi Arabia.

Estimates of the number of adherents to Wahhabism vary, with one source (Michael Izady) giving a figure of less than 5 million Wahhabis in the Persian Gulf region (compared to 28.5 million Sunnis and 89 million Shia).[22][23]

With the help of funding from petroleum exports[24] (and other factors[25]), the movement underwent "explosive growth" beginning in the 1970s and now has worldwide influence.[3] The movement also draws from the teachings of Medieval theologian Ibn Taymiyyah and early jurist Ahmad ibn Hanbal.[26]

Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",[27][28] and for causing disunity in the Muslim community by labeling non-Wahhabi Muslims as apostates[29] (takfir) thus paving the way for their bloodshed.[30][31][32] It has also been criticized for the destruction of historic mazaars, mausoleums, and other Muslim and non-Muslim buildings and artifacts.[33][34][35] The "boundaries" of what make up Wahhabism have been called "difficult to pinpoint",[36] but in contemporary usage, the terms Wahhabi and Salafi are often used interchangeably, and considered to be movements with different roots that have merged since the 1960s.[37][38] [39] But Wahhabism has also been called "a particular orientation within Salafism",[5] or an ultra-conservative, Saudi brand of Salafism."

This is the source of all the terrorism we are witnessing today. Declaring a war on the saudi family is declaring a war on the USA, and no one has the guts to take this decision in the middle east. The saudi family is protected by the Quincy accord.
 
Thanks for the history lesson.

However, you still haven't pointed out what concrete action the moderate Muslim world community is doing to stop it.

And if your just going to cut and paste something, it's practice around here, to give a link to the website so it can be seen in its entirety.

Or at least, take out the reference numbers.
 
A good history Lesson.  I would like to point out though; just as most of the world tends to lump all Christians into the same melting pot the western world tends to lump all Muslims into the same bunch as well.

Recceguy has stated it very plainly. The majority of Muslims need to step up and very vocally and actively begin to sort their  problems out. The rest of the world won't tolerate their BS very much longer, at least in their own backyards, anyway.
 
Force, did you even read the article? it adresses your concerns about where recruits are coming from.  the religious philosphy isn't only a recruitment tool as you put it.

i'll quote this part of it which i feel expresses a lot about the prevailing sentiment here

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it.

you are making the same mistake, many in the west including myself until recently are doing.
 
recceguy said:
Thanks for the history lesson.

However, you still haven't pointed out what concrete action the moderate Muslim world community is doing to stop it.

And if your just going to cut and paste something, it's practice around here, to give a link to the website so it can be seen in its entirety.

Or at least, take out the reference numbers.
Sorry this is the link : http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

I dont know what concrete action I can do to stop isis. what I do here is tell the people who are filled with hatred against muslims about the reality of the conflict and the history behind it. As for public demonstrations against isis, I find it useless. A public demonstration is to pressure  governments or legal entities. But a demonstration against a gang of rats? What will that do? This will have absolutely no effect on isis.
As an arab myself, I can tell you that most of the arab population gets easly brainwashed into sectarian conflicts and arabs are known to backstab each other, history proves it. But arabs are only 400 million muslims out of the 1.5 billion. The muslim world is so big and it is not one connected entity. The muslims, like christians, are living in countries, they cannot act on their own they are not a government, they are just people living. When you say what are moderate Muslims doing... well alot of them are fighting actively and passively against isis, and others are not, theres no united worldwide muslim community, theres countries with muslims in it. Me in Canada I don't know what to do against isis? I want to join the canadian forces because I think their mission is noble and helps all over the world, I dont know what to do to fight isis from canada?
 
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