Islam and Western Society

[NSDreamer]

Do you practice Islam and believe non believers should be converted or killed?

I find it strange when someone identifies as a muslim, jew, christian, buddist etc.. except they pick and choose which religious rules or laws they follow and which they don't.  Is a watered down christian or muslim really following the teachings of the quran or bible? 

It reminds me of a friend of mine who is a vegetarian; except she eats pepperoni on pizza, hot dogs from A&W and sometimes bacon on bagels when shes too lazy to pick it off.

This is pretty off target on two fronts, at several points in the Koran, and I'd have to be at home to look up the notes from back when I was in university, it states that "People who are of the book (ie christians, jews, budhists) should be left alone, as they worship the same god so long as they do not attack Islam" So it's not kill or convert.

If you identify as a Christian, you can still sin, but there is forgiveness in the religion as such. So that "follow all the rules or none" is really a straw man arguement.

I'm all for good intellectual discourse, but stuff like this frustrates me.

(quote unrelated) Also I know quite a few muslims in the CF, I think they joined to help push back this tide. Do we disregard them and say they
are doing nothing? People always forget them and say "you people are doing nothing" I'm pretty sure any arguement that begins with "You people" is a bad one...

 

[Loachman]

Most of the people on this planet aren't doing anything about ISIS, either.

Most of the people on this planet aren't even aware of ISIS.

If ISIS is not a sports team, musical artist, or reality TV star, they're just not worthy of notice.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This is pretty off target on two fronts, at several points in the Koran, and I'd have to be at home to look up the notes from back when I was in university, it states that "People who are of the book (ie christians, jews, budhists) should be left alone, as they worship the same god so long as they do not attack Islam" So it's not kill or convert.

If you identify as a Christian, you can still sin, but there is forgiveness in the religion as such. So that "follow all the rules or none" is really a straw man arguement.

I'm all for good intellectual discourse, but stuff like this frustrates me.

(quote unrelated) Also I know quite a few muslims in the CF, I think they joined to help push back this tide. Do we disregard them and say they
are doing nothing? People always forget them and say "you people are doing nothing" I'm pretty sure any arguement that begins with "You people" is a bad one...

NSDreamer,

I did a search for the notes you spoke of.  I didn't find them yet but I did find some of these cheerful passages which seem to counter the note you recall seeing.
 

    Qur’an:9:5 - “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

    Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

    [Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

    Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone .”

    Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

    Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

    Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”

Etc.. Etc..

Most definitions of a "muslim" I found say it is someone who follows the Qur'an/ follows the teachings of Islam. 

I've outlined a few of the teachings above.  My argument is a Muslim that doesn't subscribe to these rules is like my vegetarian friend.

We then get into what Loachman wisely pointed out; people basically pick and choose which tenants they follow.  We make special allowances based on religion in which the followers pick and choose just how religious they are.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hold the phone here, whoever split this off.  I resent the hell out of having my comments on this thread being considered part of an "anti Muslim narrative".  I am NOT, and never have been anti Muslim, anti Christian, anti Jew, anti tank, or anything other than anti asshole.  Whoever arbitrarily decided that I am, can take a long hard suck on my lily white, not anti Muslim, English arse.

Interesting side note;  I deliberately typed all religion names in lower case.  The only one auto correct didn't pick up for capitalization was "christian", strange, no?

:goodpost:

I agree Kat. I'm going to have to do some looking behind the curtain to find who started this thread with such an inflammatory title and decided to make one of my posts the first one to try inflame a situation that doesn't exist.

I, also, am not anti Muslim\ Islamist. I just want to know where they stand and what their going to do to recover themselves and their religion.

Anyway, the title has been changed.

 

[jollyjacktar]

This video surfaced last week.  I cannot recall if anyone posted a link to it.  It is a Granny taking some ISIS thugs to task, she really schools them and at the end owns them.  At the very least it is something to see her have a go at them, a "Raging Granny" for sure.

Grandmother Bravely Stands Up To ISIS Telling Them To Stop

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This video surfaced last week.  I cannot recall if anyone posted a link to it.  It is a Granny taking some ISIS thugs to task, she really schools them and at the end owns them.  At the very least it is something to see her have a go at them, a "Raging Granny" for sure.

Grandmother Bravely Stands Up To ISIS Telling Them To Stop

That is the type of reaction we should see everywhere, from everyone. Unfortunately, the world is not all Grandmothers, who carry a great amount of respect and underlying power in that society.

 

[McG]

I'm going to have to do some looking behind the curtain to find who started this thread with such an inflammatory title and decided to make one of my posts the first one to try inflame a situation that doesn't exist.

I split the thread.  The title was a play on the thread it first came from (the anti-western narrative) and the thread was labeled as having been split from there.

The source posts by Force were left in the source threads because they were on topic to those threads (anti-western narrative and Islamic civil war in the Middle East), and your posts fully quotes them (making them unneccesary in the new thread).

Change the name if you want.

That being said, this thread has not been about "The Role of Islam in Western Society" (as currently labeled) it has been about a precived obligation of all moderate Muslims (Western or not) to be accountable for and prove themselves different from extremist (particularly including terrorist) Muslims.

 

[Naval Reservist]

This video surfaced last week.  I cannot recall if anyone posted a link to it.  It is a Granny taking some ISIS thugs to task, she really schools them and at the end owns them.  At the very least it is something to see her have a go at them, a "Raging Granny" for sure.

Grandmother Bravely Stands Up To ISIS Telling Them To Stop

I actually think that grandma has more courage than I would if I were there, in that situation, with a bunch of ISIS guys. As much as I don't want to admit it, fear is one of the reasons I believe they are doing so well.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This video surfaced last week.  I cannot recall if anyone posted a link to it.  It is a Granny taking some ISIS thugs to task, she really schools them and at the end owns them.  At the very least it is something to see her have a go at them, a "Raging Granny" for sure.

Grandmother Bravely Stands Up To ISIS Telling Them To Stop

I hope she lasts the week ....

 

[NSDreamer]

NSDreamer,

I did a search for the notes you spoke of.  I didn't find them yet but I did find some of these cheerful passages which seem to counter the note you recall seeing.
 
Most definitions of a "muslim" I found say it is someone who follows the Qur'an/ follows the teachings of Islam. 

I've outlined a few of the teachings above.  My argument is a Muslim that doesn't subscribe to these rules is like my vegetarian friend.

We then get into what Loachman wisely pointed out; people basically pick and choose which tenants they follow.  We make special allowances based on religion in which the followers pick and choose just how religious they are.

Fair enough, I'll find some points when I get home. I understand where you're coming from.

 

[CougarKing]

An example of European Muslims standing up against radicals in their communities?

Reuters

Norway's Muslims form protective human ring around synagogue

OSLO (Reuters) - More than 1000 Muslims formed a human shield around Oslo's synagogue on Saturday, offering symbolic protection for the city's Jewish community and condemning an attack on a synagogue in neighboring Denmark last weekend.

Chanting "No to anti-Semitism, no to Islamophobia," Norway's Muslims formed what they called a ring of peace a week after Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein, a Danish-born son of Palestinian immigrants, killed two people at a synagogue and an event promoting free speech in Copenhagen last weekend.

"Humanity is one and we are here to demonstrate that," Zeeshan Abdullah, one of the protest's organizers told a crowd of Muslim immigrants and ethnic Norwegians who filled the small street around Oslo's only functioning synagogue.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Brad Sallows]

>That being said, this thread has not been about "The Role of Islam in Western Society" (as currently labeled) it has been about a precived obligation of all moderate Muslims (Western or not) to be accountable for and prove themselves different from extremist (particularly including terrorist) Muslims.

I'll take a stab at that.

Islam needs a schism: an absolute formal division between medievalist tyrants and those wishing to assume the mantle of "religion of peace".  A schism by definition only happens if the adherents do it themselves.  The tyrants aren't going to do it.  It isn't going to happen in the tightly regulated closed Islamic nations.  It can only happen in countries with strong democratic institutions; it can only happen if moderate Muslims take up the challenge to be accountable and prove themselves different.  The role of Islam in Western Society is to create a new Islam compatible with Western Society.  It is not Western Society's responsibility to make itself compatible with Islam.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

>That being said, this thread has not been about "The Role of Islam in Western Society" (as currently labeled) it has been about a precived obligation of all moderate Muslims (Western or not) to be accountable for and prove themselves different from extremist (particularly including terrorist) Muslims.

I'll take a stab at that.

Islam needs a schism: an absolute formal division between medievalist tyrants and those wishing to assume the mantle of "religion of peace".  A schism by definition only happens if the adherents do it themselves.  The tyrants aren't going to do it.  It isn't going to happen in the tightly regulated closed Islamic nations.  It can only happen in countries with strong democratic institutions; it can only happen if moderate Muslims take up the challenge to be accountable and prove themselves different.  The role of Islam in Western Society is to create a new Islam compatible with Western Society.  It is not Western Society's responsibility to make itself compatible with Islam.

:goodpost:

What I've been trying to say.

 

[McG]

The role of Islam in Western Society is to create a new Islam compatible with Western Society.  It is not Western Society's responsibility to make itself compatible with Islam.

That would seem to necessitate rejecting the violence and terrorism, rejecting individuals who espouse the violence from the western Muslim community, and otherwise contributing productively to whichever western nation the Muslim is a part of.  This would not seem to necessitate abandoning one's place in western society to fight a south Asian war.  A Muslim, volunteering as a CAF member to fight where and when our government deems to be in the national interest, surely does not need to be challenge to join a moderate Middle East militia in order to meet his obligations to Canadian society.

We have seen there are examples that the Canadian Muslim  community is doing what it needs to do:

It seems as if at the drop of a hat, or cartoon that offends, streets are mobbed by baying crowds demanding heads be chopped off.  Well, you want our respect and assistance, then lets see those crowds baying in the streets, worldwide, against ISIS, Boko Haram et al. 

The crowds that you want to see are there to be seen:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/hundreds-of-calgary-muslims-protest-isis-violence-in-iraq-1.2683589

... what concrete action the moderate Muslim world community is doing to stop [ISIS].

Would that not be Egypt, UAE, Jordan, etc going to war with ISIS?

... or maybe Canadian Mulim leaders calling for the investigations to rout-out domestic terrorist aggitators/supporters/recruiters, publicly denouncing such behaviours, less publicly working to "de-radicalize" youth, and warning police of radicalized members of the muslim community?  It has all been done.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-imam-calls-for-inquiry-into-recruitment-of-muslim-radicals
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/young-muslim-calls-on-police-nenshi-to-do-more-about-extremists-1.2685124
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/algonquin-college-muslim-students-association-denounce-extremism-1.2945534
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/persecution/toronto-mosque-offers-detox-for-extremists.html
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2013/04/24/muslim_community_deserves_credit_for_thwarting_toronto_terror_plot_editorial.html

So what more is wanted?

 

[a_majoor]

The difficulty is that Islam is conceived of as an all encompassing religious and social movement; there is no separation of Church and State in Islam, nor is it even possible under most interpretations of the Quran (both moderate and radical). That alone makes Islam incompatible with Western society, since our civilization is based on clearly delineated roles of Church, State, legislatures, and courts of law. Our civilization is also predicated on individual freedoms and property rights (the practical implementation of individual liberties), which are also downplayed or ignored in the Quran.

Like many people have said upthread and in other fora; only the Muslims themselves can make the changes necessary to become functional members of Western society. Many have, as individuals, but there is not a critical mass who are vocal and active in integrating into our society and speaking, acting and fighting against radicals.

 

[Force]

The difficulty is that Islam is conceived of as an all encompassing religious and social movement; there is no separation of Church and State in Islam, nor is it even possible under most interpretations of the Quran (both moderate and radical). That alone makes Islam incompatible with Western society, since our civilization is based on clearly delineated roles of Church, State, legislatures, and courts of law. Our civilization is also predicated on individual freedoms and property rights (the practical implementation of individual liberties), which are also downplayed or ignored in the Quran.

Like many people have said upthread and in other fora; only the Muslims themselves can make the changes necessary to become functional members of Western society. Many have, as individuals, but there is not a critical mass who are vocal and active in integrating into our society and speaking, acting and fighting against radicals.

That's not true.. muslims that don't live in an islamic state are forced to abide to the laws of the country they live in. And that's what I'm doing. There is also one thing that people don't understand, most muslims don't even know their religion, they just pray and fast without actually having studied islam, they were just born muslim. Those people are like anyone you meet on the street, you cannot go and ask them to justify/act/fight, they are in no way connected to any of the things happening in the world and are just normal citizens. If there are radical fanatics in Canada, it is every canadian's duty to stand up against them, regardless of their religion. Muslims do not have more responsability than others because they are not even connected to those fanatics and those fanatics have a totally different religion than the normal muslim. Why would you hold a grudge against a muslim that doesn't give a damn about those fanatics if he doesnt act/etc ?

Once you understand that islam is not a country or a worldwide organisation, you will understand that muslims living in the west are Canadian/Americans/French/etc, and their islam is just a way of living, not a political movement... Are there muslim organisations in the west? Yes . Are all muslims part of organisatons? No.

Take a normal muslim for example, what do you expect him to do? Pick up the phonebook and call every mohammad on it and organise a march?  You think hes connected to thousands of muslims and that he is part of social movements? Why can't a normal muslim be looked at like a normal citizen? Not all muslims are implicated in social movements nor participate in social activities...

 

[McG]

Like many people have said upthread and in other fora; only the Muslims themselves can make the changes necessary to become functional members of Western society. Many have, as individuals, but there is not a critical mass who are vocal and active in integrating into our society and speaking, acting and fighting against radicals.

Where does that conclusion come from?  What I have seen of Muslim Canadian society through media seems to suggest the majority are openly opposed to radicals, and the police are warned when the community perceives individuals of its population have become dangerous.  The Muslims who I know (most of them Canadian Soldiers), are very much against the violent radicals.  What is this critical mass that must be reached for the Canadian Muslim community to deserve the trust of the broader Canadian society?  What does this critical mass need to do?

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Okay, I guess I'll be the one that goes off PC script.

I'm not against Muslim individuals but I most certainly have a problem with the Quran and Hadiths.

The fact they still exist in their current form and are accepted as a base of faith for so many is deeply disturbing to me.

Until there is a fundamental reformation of the concept of Dar al Islam vs Dar al Harb and Jihad, there will be a constant war of Islam against non-Islam.

It's up to the moderates to say "enough is enough" and the make the changes that allow most other major religions to now peacefully co-exist.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Why can't a normal muslim be looked at like a normal citizen?

To my way of thinking a "normal muslim" would be a muslim who follows the Qur'an pretty much to the T.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That's not true.. muslims that don't live in an islamic state are forced to abide to the laws of the country they live in. And that's what I'm doing. There is also one thing that people don't understand, most muslims don't even know their religion, they just pray and fast without actually having studied islam, they were just born muslim. Those people are like anyone you meet on the street, you cannot go and ask them to justify/act/fight, they are in no way connected to any of the things happening in the world and are just normal citizens. If there are radical fanatics in Canada, it is every canadian's duty to stand up against them, regardless of their religion. Muslims do not have more responsability than others because they are not even connected to those fanatics and those fanatics have a totally different religion than the normal muslim. Why would you hold a grudge against a muslim that doesn't give a damn about those fanatics if he doesnt act/etc ?

Once you understand that islam is not a country or a worldwide organisation, you will understand that muslims living in the west are Canadian/Americans/French/etc, and their islam is just a way of living, not a political movement... Are there muslim organisations in the west? Yes . Are all muslims part of organisatons? No.

Take a normal muslim for example, what do you expect him to do? Pick up the phonebook and call every mohammad on it and organise a march?  You think hes connected to thousands of muslims and that he is part of social movements? Why can't a normal muslim be looked at like a normal citizen? Not all muslims are implicated in social movements nor participate in social activities...

What is a normal Muslim? A Sunni, Shia, Ismail? If you want to say "Modern Muslim" being one that does not believe the Quaran is the definitive word of Allah upon the earth, but a book set in a particular time and place to be used in a similar way that the bible is used in the west here. This is what defines you, do you believe it is the absolute word of god or not? Either way you become part of the problem, if you are the former then your normal is not our normal, it can't be and you are lying to us, yourself or both. If you are the latter and you sit quietly while the Iman spews vile, contempt and hatred, then you are part of the problem. I have heard with my own ears the contempt of the Iman's here have, i see the mosque in my area is funded by Saudi's and I know what strings are attached and what they are expected to preach. I know good Muslims, like my brother inlaw, who could not hurt anyone, but the problem is that the good Muslims have done nothing and allowed evil to flourish, so yes either way you are part of it, the only question is which part?