Islam and Western Society

[Lumber]

But then again... if Music was Haram we wouldn't have justin bieber and sometimes I wonder if that is an acceptable trade....

Solid.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Islam has a long history of the fun police shutting shit down.  Coffee was at one time banned in Istanbul and other locations.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_coffee  Why can't they be like the Baptists?  They always seem to be a fun loving bunch.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I wonder how that man and his family have managed to stay alive so long in North America! They must have a big vegetable garden in their backyard, with chickens and other stuff.

Music is haram! And it's an absolute that they cannot listen to music! To make matters worse, there is no room to disobey that point!

Every single store and shopping centre I know of in N.A. has "elevator' music playing in the background (and that includes at least one halal food store I shop at - cause they have the best couscous I ever had  :nod. It's a standard marketing technique and I am pretty sure it's the same just about worldwide. So I don't know how he ever shops (or get to the top floors of office buildings for that matter ???).

 

[mariomike]

Every single store and shopping centre I know of in N.A. has "elevator' music playing in the background (and that includes at least one halal food store I shop at - cause they have the best couscous I ever had  :nod. It's a standard marketing technique and I am pretty sure it's the same just about worldwide. So I don't know how he ever shops (or get to the top floors of office buildings for that matter ???).

Girl from Ipanema is one of my favorites. 

Tall and tan and young and lovely
The girl from Ipanema goes walking and
When she passes, each one she passes goes "ah"

Muzak, especially in its classical form, seems to have the ability to disperse loitering teenagers from public areas.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Dude needs a little bit of this kind of action.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDkWRP67Es0

 

[Colin Parkinson]

In Malaysia I was pointing out that the Taliban would consider many of them non-Muslims or poor Muslims for having musical ringtones and would beat them for the offense. Seems they had not considered this. The one good thing about the radicals getting in charge, is they very quickly make life miserable for everyone, to the point where people are willing to fight them.

 

[Loachman]

"What Is My Religion? I Feel Shame on My Self because am a Muslim"

by Hakim Haider
September 20, 2016 at 5:30 am

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8958/what-is-my-religion

Mosques are a basic school where your children learn the Subject of Terrorism.

I ask again to Teacher (Mulla) in Mosque, Sir, there are so many Groups in Islam. One Group orders to Kill the other Group because he is a Non-Muslim. Why? He Replied Because he do not follow our Rules. Am Surprised to Listen. This means One Person who do not follow our Rules we Kill him?

I ask one more Question. Sir, if am a Sunni or Wahabi, I Kill the Person who belongs to an Other Sect like Shia? He reply, Yes off Course. Am shocked and say shoutly, No Sir I do not Kill Any Body whether he is Muslm or Non-Muslim or Muslim belong to an Other Sect. Am just talking. He (Mulla) slapped me hardly. Next am sit on the corner of Mosque, Quietly.

Every group or Sect are telling, We do this because our Prophet order us to. So what is the Prophet teaching, to kill someone just because he do not follow us?

I open my eyes in a Islamic Family in a Islamic Country but in 23 years I do not know what is Islam? What is the purpose of Islam?

Once I ask a question to my Teacher (Mulla) in the Mosque, What is the difference in the Muslim and the Non-Muslim?

He Replied One who beleaves on ALLAH and prophet MUHAMMAD P.B.U.H is a Muslim and One who does not beleave on ALLAH and MUHAMMAD P.B.U.H is a Non-Muslim.

I ask Again, So what we do? How we teach the Non-Muslim?

He replied Just Kill him.

I ask Why we Kill him? And when I Kill him?

He replied When you Grow up then you Kill him.

Am thinking from that day Why this Teacher (Mulla) telling me this? On Next Day I ask again to Teacher (Mulla) in Mosque, Sir there are so many Groups in Islam. One Group orders to Kill the other Group because he is Non-Muslim Why?

He Replied Because he do not follow our Rules.

Am Surprised to Listen. This means One Person who do not follow our Rules we Kill him? I ask One more Question, Sir if am a Sunni or Wahabi, I Kill the Person who belongs to an Other Sect like Shia.

He Replied Yes off Course.

Am shocked and reply shoutly, No Sir I do not Kill Any Body whether he is Muslim or Non-Muslim or Muslim belong to an Other Sect.

Am just talking. He (Mulla) Slapped me hardly. Next am sit on the corner of Mosque, Quietly.

Now so many Groups or Sects of Islam are killing one an Other and the most horrible thing is Muslim Countries support to these groups, Like Iran who is a Pure Shia Islamic State support to these groups who are fighting against the SUNNIS. And Saudia Arabia who is pure SUNNI or WAHABI State support to these groups who are fighting against the SHIA SECT. Even these Muslim Countries provide weapons and training to these groups.

There are more than 80 Sects in Islam now, every One trying to show he is Right and Other is Wrong. No Muslim group or Muslim country trying to keep concentration on Peace, doing welfare work for mankind. Every Muslim trying to kill an Other.

So I listen to killing lesson from the Mosque and watch this lesson practiced on the Ground. In every Terrorist Attack, Hidden Hand was a Muslim Hand. So I feel Shame on my Self that am belong to such a Religion who are running on just Terrorism Lesson, Nothing more. A Religion who are divided into more than 80 Groups or Sects then How somebody realize which Group or Sect is true? Every Group or Sect pray is differently.

And every group or Sect are telling, We do this because our Prophet order us to. So what is the Prophet teaching to kill someone for, just because he do not follow us? Muslim abusing a lot of Jew and Christian because not a follower of ALLAH and MUHAMMAD P.B.U.H. But on the Other side, these religions grow up because they all have a peace full mind, they are working on humanity. But on the Other hand, I do not see any humanity in Islam, and the few Humanity Work was done just for showment in front of world, nothing more.

Humanity is a only religion in the world who is the best Religion and am saying that Jews, Christians work on Humanity. So Now then What is the Credibility of mosques? What is the Credibility of Teachers (Mullas)? And which religion is true? On my view Muslim Religion is not True and Mosques or Madrasas are a root of terrorism. Am not a Jew or Christian am a Muslim and am saying all this being a Muslim and I feel Shame on My Self because am a Muslim.

I totally disagree with Islamic lesson, Islamic terrorist Sects, and Islamic groups. Mosques are a basic school where your children learn the Subject of Terrorism. Madrasas are a Lab where your Children practice terrorism, and the World are a place where your children do terrorism. Islam is nothing more, just simply, "One who is disagree with you, just Pick up a Gun and Shoot him".

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

That just confirms my personal view that, since every religion, sub-religion and/or religious sect out there holds the exact same position that:

1- They have the only right answer and way, and
2- Therefore every body else is going to hell.

And since there are more than one religion, sub-religion and/or sects;

Then we are indubitably led to the sole possible conclusion: we are ALL going to hell ultimately.

So, why not just forget about religions and religious practices, live happily in the here and now and extend our little lives on this planet as much as we can to delay that inevitable trip to the underworld!

 

[AbdullahD]

That just confirms my personal view that, since every religion, sub-religion and/or religious sect out there holds the exact same position that:

1- They have the only right answer and way, and
2- Therefore every body else is going to hell.

And since there are more than one religion, sub-religion and/or sects;

Then we are indubitably led to the sole possible conclusion: we are ALL going to hell ultimately.

So, why not just forget about religions and religious practices, live happily in the here and now and extend our little lives on this planet as much as we can to delay that inevitable trip to the underworld!

You know I had this exact conversation with an Islamc scholar who was going through Mufti studies at that time  (ie someone who knew which way was up).

He told me, as best as I can remember, is that yes we hold the true path and their are many hadiths stating follow Islam or it is hell fire.

But he said those hadiths were mostly to believing sahaba and not to be taken as the final word for non-Muslims. For anyone who was not a Muslim, if they never heard of 'true' Islamic teachings then they get judged differently. If they believed in one god then either immediately or eventually they would get to heaven, because that is all Islam is to begin with, belief in one god.

Then the question of atheists came up and he said that yes, their is a 'possibility' that atheists may even get to heaven due to the nobility of their actions. He said that only Allah can judge and anyone who says these people are going to hell, may end up there themselves.

Judgement is only for God, essentially I believe following Islam is the best chance at heaven, but only god judges, so we may all end up there. I have many non-Muslim friends who are extremely noble and honorable so I follow this particular scholars position on this issue

Also it was Moulana Mazhar and it was a longer conversation then this, but this was the gist of it. He has also been interviewed by cbc too, he is a very soft guy.

Abdullah

 

[AbdullahD]

http://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2016/09/debate-around-burqa-hijab/#.V_BpuOti6wt.facebook

Bad News: Here’s Why The Debate Around The Hijab And Burqa Can Never Be Resolved
Posted on September 19, 2016 in Sexism And Patriarchy, Society, Staff Picks
 
By Masarat Daud:

In 2014, when I was asked to speak at TED, I was trying to explain to my parents how great an opportunity this was. After a few minutes, my mother asks, “So what are you talking about?”

“Hijab. And well, the burqa,” I reply.

“The burqa? You are going all the way to Vancouver to speak about something so mundane?”

“Well, it’s a big deal there…”

More at link.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I bet the Burka would be a big deal if she had to wear everyday

 

[AbdullahD]

I bet the Burka would be a big deal if she had to wear everyday

Thats a question of choosing to verse being forced to. She should have her (like everyone) choice to dress how she wants, if she is being forced to wear it, I can see it being problematic. But, if she wants to, I dont see her ever having an issue with it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That is the tricky thing, how do you know when it's truly voluntary? From my wife experience, the mosque and the community can apply pressure in many ways, through exclusion or verbal harassment. For most Muslims, family and community are everything and are wrapped up in your daily life. So the threat of being cutoff from family or community for not conforming is very real and very powerful. Even if no hand is raised against them.   

 

[Remius]

That is the tricky thing, how do you know when it's truly voluntary? From my wife experience, the mosque and the community can apply pressure in many ways, through exclusion or verbal harassment. For most Muslims, family and community are everything and are wrapped up in your daily life. So the threat of being cutoff from family or community for not conforming is very real and very powerful. Even if no hand is raised against them. 

The same can be said about many religious based communities.  Orthodox Jews, Mormons, Baptists etc etc etc.  Heck you can apply that to many homogenous groups.

 

[YZT580]

But very few of those groups will slit your throat if you fail to comply.  Why is it that every one likes to jump to the defense of those who would deprive others of their rights in this country or who do not provide the same courtesies in their own.  Instead the common argument is that the Baptists do it too. The Burka is a symbol of submission and subservience.  It is not even a requirement of Islam and its significance has only been enhanced in the last few decades. 

 

[AbdullahD]

The same can be said about many religious based communities.  Orthodox Jews, Mormons, Baptists etc etc etc.  Heck you can apply that to many homogenous groups.

Agreed, both to you and Colin. These are tricky waters to navigate.

If someone is being forced to do 'xyz' by group 'abc' then it is wrong, but it is extremely hard to tell if they are or are not being forced. I find it is dang near impossible to find out which way the dice falls unless you talk to the person directly. Which to do on a mass interview basis is darned near impossible as well and likely not a good idea anyways. I do know women who are being forced... revert women namely and I hate it with a passion.. but on the flip side I know revert woman who will not take the niqab off.

Abdullah

 

[Edward Campbell]

Anecdotal "evidence," only, so it's not really "proof" of anything, but ...

A few of years ago I was in Malaysia visiting a friend and I stayed at a very nice hotel in Kuala Lumpur to adjust before heading up to Penang. The hotel served complimentary cocktails every afternoon in a beautiful lounge on the next to the top floor ~ the top floor was a swimming pool and very popular  "sky bar." Anyway I was seated at a nice, quiet table by the windows, looking out at the Petronas Towers when one of the pretty young hostesses approached and asked if I would mind sharing my table with (she pointed) that nice English couple. Of course I didn't mind, and after brief introductions we chatted. The lady was disappointed that my trip was only to KL and Penang; "neither is the "real" Malaysia, you know," she said, "and while the governments in the Chinese majority provinces (which KL and Penang are) are fair and efficient they, the Chinese, lack the real warmth and friendliness of the Malay people." "Why are you in KL?" I asked. Medical care for her husband, she replied and then her husband chimed in, saying something like: "And we're looking for a new home. The Malays are nice and friendly but the imported sheiks and imans are making life harder for us expats." "How so?" I asked. "Look," he replied, "we've lived in <name of a 'hill station' town> for n years, ever since I retired. There is a smallish expat community and we were always made welcome and we thought we fitted in well. There was one English style pub in the town, run by a local Malay fellow; it was, almost, everyone's 'second home' and he did a good business, so he told us. It was the expats' social centre and also very popular with the locals. Then a new iman came to the big mosque. He was from somewhere in the Middle East and he, immediately, went to war with the pub. He wanted it closed and no amount of explaining that it was all legal and proper and in accordance with Malay law would change his mind: it, serving alcohol to foreigners, was a sin. First of all most of the locals stopped coming, but we expats just had more social events there ~ we, for example, stopped our regular dinner parties in our home and invited all our friends to the pub, instead. The owner was grateful but he explained that he was under intense pressure from the iman. Then the police, apologetically explaining that they had no choice, the iman insisted, began to harass the owner with trumped up complaints. Last month he folded. I need some more, better medical attention anyway so, along with some other expats we've decided to move to 'less friendly' Kuala Lumpur ~ where the government and police are under proper control in accordance with the laws of the land ... because KL is a majority Chinese province. Maybe they aren't 'nice' and 'friendly' but, by god, they are honest and efficient." His wife, rather sadly, agreed.

In Penang I went out early one morning to go up the "mountain," actually just a big hill, but with a lovely view as the clouds lift. When I got to the cable car station there was a big crowd. Everyone was surging towards cars, lots of pushing and shoving. A middle aged lady took my arm and said, "Come with us, we have room in our car." Well, I spent a good part of a very pleasant morning with this family: Mother and father around 50, I would guess, older daughter (with a babe in arms) and husband maybe 25, and younger daughter maybe 17. I was pretty used to "dress codes" in Malaysia ... Malaysian girls look, mostly, rather like this:

   

          ... while Malaysian-Chines girls look more like this:

             

                    ... anyway this was a Muslim family and while the older daughter was dressed in trousers, a long sleeved top and a hijab, the younger, 17ish, girl was dressed in short shorts and at-shirt.

In due course the topic took to families and jobs. Mom and dad were both school teachers: he was vice principal of a Muslim high school and his wife taught at one of the better Chinese schools. His two daughters had both been educated in the Chinese schools. He then explained that, despite what some local imans said, he, a well educated Muslim, could find nothing that said his wife or daughters had to dress in a certain way. "We are all," he said, "commanded to be modest in our lives. Anyone who knows my wife and daughters will affirm that they are good, modest women. My older daughter dresses as she does to mollify her husband's family. I accept that even though she and I know that the Holy Quran says nothing about it. My youngest daughter dresses as she does because she's a teenager and she hopes it might shock me ... it doesn't," he said, with a grin, "so score one for me." I told him my KL hotel story and asked if there as any such 'pressure' in Penang. "Some imans might like to apply those sorts of rules here," he relied, "but this is Penang and we respect and obey the laws and no one would dare try to pressure me or my wife. Threatening my job, for example," he said, "would be sufficient grounds for me to ask the local, provincial (Chinese) government to expel a foreign cleric, and I would do so, if pressured, and everyone who matters knows that."

Anyway, a tale of two cities ...

 

[Remius]

But very few of those groups will slit your throat if you fail to comply.  Why is it that every one likes to jump to the defense of those who would deprive others of their rights in this country or who do not provide the same courtesies in their own.  Instead the common argument is that the Baptists do it too. The Burka is a symbol of submission and subservience.  It is not even a requirement of Islam and its significance has only been enhanced in the last few decades.

Why is it that people like to single out the cultural group of the day (or in the news) while ignoring what's ben going on here for decades and even centuries?  How is what you claim they are doing any different than any other organisation forcing their cultural norms on others that choose to be part of that culture? Our laws protect those people.  If they choose to remain part of those groups, their choice.  We force our kids to dress certain ways, my catholic high school forced us to recite the lords prayer and take religion classes to get our diploma.  I could have switched schools at any time but didn't.  How many throat slittings are there here over this?  Now how many non muslim spouses are murdered for trying to leave their husbands?  It's more than just one culture.  It's men forcing their will on women.  Only when women get truly recognised as equals will this kind of stuff end.  And the truth is that every religion and culture has this problem.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

building on the Malay story, I just have to look at my wife's family photo album, you can see the turn to more conservative dress and suppression of Malay culture, which used to be very relaxed, women wearing sarongs that did not cover the shoulder or western style outfits. Islam has been there since the at least the 1400's, the Malays took Islam and "Malaysianized" it. Now the Saudi and gulf States are paying for the mosques and Imans , but requiring a strict interpretation based around whabbism. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

If someone is being forced to do 'xyz' by group 'abc' then it is wrong, but it is extremely hard to tell if they are or are not being forced. I find it is dang near impossible to find out which way the dice falls unless you talk to the person directly. Which to do on a mass interview basis is darned near impossible as well and likely not a good idea anyways. I do know women who are being forced... revert women namely and I hate it with a passion.. but on the flip side I know revert woman who will not take the niqab off.

Perhaps a disorder like Battered Woman Syndrome  might offer some clues as to why some women "choose" to wear this stuff?
In some cases would suggesting a woman could just take it off be the same as suggesting a woman in an abusive relationship can just leave?