Islam and Western Society

[Lumber]

Thanks Abdullah, I did know, I'm going somewhere with this
But who are you to judge that your son didn't in fact receive a dream from Allah?  I've met a couple padres now who were NCOs or Officers who received a dream from God to become padres after years of service.  If God sends nice messages to people isn't it safe to say God can send mean ones too? (old testament is full of fire and brimstone stuff).

If your son said he received a message from Allah saying he should become a cleric I presume you would believe him and be supportive?
But when the message is a violent one [Quran 2:191-193 ] then he requires psychiatric care? Essentially whether to believe Allah's will or not depends on your own personal feelings about whats being said. So not exactly "absolutely everything is up to God to decide".

Jarn,

I just want to make sure you're perfectly aware that your line of question has nothing to do with Abdullah's family, not Islam in general. You could be posing the same question to a person from any faith.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Jarn,

I just want to make sure you're perfectly aware that your line of question has nothing to do with Abdullah's family, not Islam in general. You could be posing the same question to a person from any faith.

Lumber,

I think you made a mistake in your post. It doesn't make 100% sense to me however I think I understand the just of what you're saying and to that I would reply yes and no.
Yes I can ask that question to someone of any faith. I think Islam is somewhat different however due to the heavily influenced Inshallah and that's the core of what I'm speaking to and asking about.

 

[AbdullahD]

Lumber,

I think you made a mistake in your post. It doesn't make 100% sense to me however I think I understand the just of what you're saying and to that I would reply yes and no.
Yes I can ask that question to someone of any faith. I think Islam is somewhat different however due to the heavily influenced Inshallah and that's the core of what I'm speaking to and asking about.

Saying Inshallah worries you? Here is a little preview of were it came from.. unless, you are going to some extreme interpertations of the word, I can not fathom why anyone would be worried about Inshallah. It is simply just a arab and Muslim Cultural saying, some Arab Christians use the word Inshallah too. (Please remember Allah means God in Arabic, So in Arab Bibles, they use the Arab word Allah.)

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/trueword.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/tafsir-surah-kahf-ayah-23-26/amp/?client=ms-android-bell-ca

Any rate, extremists will use any excuse to radicalize. So excuses can be found for them.

Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

Abdullah for brevity sake I may group some of my responses together and out of order.

[quote author=AbdullahD]
I genuinely like learning your viewpoints. I feel they may help me in the future and although you are critical of Islam, I do not find you to be a bigot or rascist[/quote]

Thanks Abdullah. I've never tried to hide my bias of Islam and I'm not intimidated when people start throwing "Islamaphobia" around. I know a lot of people are quick to scream racisim when people are critical which is stupid because Muslims aren't a race. [and really all race is comes down to exposure to the environment, exposure to elevation and exposure to the sun. It's stupid to be proud of or hate a race because it's simply evolution].

I don't consider myself a bigot but I AM discusted by a number of cultural practices and norms which I feel are barbaric, savage and have no place in this century.

And you took an extremely interesting direction, one I did not anticipate.

The ol' right turn on the march.

Interpretation of dreams and some of the more esoteric things involving dreams and 'divine' direction are well and truely outside my knowledge.
//
But Islam does not teach murdering innocents is acceptable, so a dream claiming 'Allah' told someone to do that is suspect

It's really all Interpretation. I can say the bible doesn't teach killing innocents however you could take 3 minutes and quote a bunch of passages from the bible talking about
-Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves
-And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

Same with the Quran. I can pull up litteral quotes about murdering people and you can counter with someone else saying "well what he really meant was.."
We're simply not going to agree that the Quran (and bible) doesn't promote killing.  On that note I think we see a heck of a lot more religious murders accredited to the Quran than the bible, not that it really changes much for the victim.


 

Now you force me to defend my Christian brethren, which I will do so to my fullest. But if I fall short a brother who is more intimately aware of Christianity can help. God/Allah/Yahwey/Creator is not full of fire and brimstone, nor is he a vindictive child like entity.

Jesus was hungry
Yahweh told Moses to murder anyone who didn't accept Israel's offer of peace.
Allah through Muhammed instructed Muslims to cut the heads and fingers off of people.
Jesus got mad at a tree for not having any fruit when he was hungry so he cursed it and the tree withered and died.

I'm sorry but regardless of your justifications and "what he really meant" webpages written by scholars in this century I can show hundreds of vindictive fire and brimstone direct quotes. Humans are trying to mitigate the fire anr brimstone stuff to make religion more 2000AD tolerant IMO.

If a person is to be executed, imprisoned etc, he has to have done something to deserve it, it can not just be done to him.

Again this is simply interpretation. The Afghan woman who was beaten and set on fire allegedly burned a Quran which was enough justification for a crowd of every day citizens to execute her. Punishing people in any aspect in accordance with religious laws is archaic and wrong. And especially messed up because of the (lack of) burden of proof and how easy it is to make shit up.

Everything he did and does or allows is for a reason, it becomes difficult for us to understand his motives

Which means Allah could very well order someone to go murder innocent people to prove a point. We simply don't understand his motives, and who are we to question if God wills it?

I actually, become very.. lets say suspicious when people tell me they received 'guidance' in any way from 'Divine' beings or prophets. I find a lot of times that 'Divine' message, can be chalked up to stimuli in a persons life leading to his mind being active in that manner at night and they interpert as a divine message. When in actuality it was the brain processing the days or weeks information.

Right. I would be suspicious too. But didn't one of Muhammeds wives feel the same way? That he conveniently got all those messages like marry his brothers wife?

Well, if my child starts quoting single lines out of the Qur'an to me and trying to give me Tafsir.. my child and i will have a very hard talk.

Imagine if they start quoting from the bible and try to convert you and your wife



Now back to your point, if what is being said conforms to the established Sunnah of Allah and his prophet. Then that is one hurdle over came, but if it flies in the face of Allah and his Sunnah, then I know it is wrong out right. Nonetheless, if I ever have a conversation with my kids like this, I will be paying strict attention to everything I can.

Now as a little aside, I was thinking today about why so many people are critical of Islam and so many are not. I was thinking about what you said of converts not being "exposed" to certain versions and interpertations of Islam and I found that to be incorrect, look at all the material covered here in this thread and the other one, you can hardly say I am unaware of these things.. but I choose to follow evidence that discounts them.. whereas others choose to discount those evidences.

Did you grow up in a Muslim household or grow up in a Muslim country?

It makes me wonder why some feel Islam or any particular issue is fine, but a person exposed to the same material can hold a countrary position. Kinda had me thinking about Initial exposure to Islam and confirmation bias and all those other neat things. I am driving around BC and Alberta these days, delivering cars for a wholesaler and I find I have far to much time to think and things like this pop up.

For me it's the scale. People like you and the students I had this summer compared to what we're reading out of Europe and the middle east.

 

[AbdullahD]

Well, thank you for letting me inside your head. I completely understand, to an extent, why you feel this way about Islam. I think we could argue all day on wether Islam is to blame or culture or socioeconomic issues or etc etc. Yet, we would never win each other to the others side.

I may post a further reply in a bit, after I digested your post. But I do not want turn this into a "nuh uh" vs "Ya ah" battle, so I will try to not rebuttal the same things over and over. If you dont accept my position then that is fine. But I may quote scholars from the first few hundred years of Islam, to debunk your position that it is 20th century scholars "modernizing" the religion and then leave it at that.

Any rate, bout to hit the road again. I'll be back later.

Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

You should drop one of those vehicles off at my place. Nice SUV I can set up for a zombie apocalypse vehicle eh?

And please don't feel obligated to respond to my post above, most of it's just ranting.


Speaking of the Apocalypse though I did want to mention something which I was discussing at work today (and please don't take it as a dig).


Suppose World War 3 started tomorrow and most of humanity was wiped out including most of our 'things'.
400 years down the road if humanity managed to  start over and someone found a book called Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone      J. K. Rowling may very well be hailed as a prophet and the book proof that magic and wizards existed.

 

[AbdullahD]

Jarnhamar you did bring up a very neat point. Especially modernization of religions to fit 'contemporary' morals and ethics etc. Your point about barbaric practices having no place in this day and I agree with, but many scholars throughout time agreed with you (us) too. This is more for my fun, then anything, but here it goes...

Music. Many Muslims consider Music as forbidden and claim 'Modern' Scholars are corrupting Islam by allowing it.
Yet, Imam Ghazali born in 1058 says it is permissible! (I wont mention the companions who kept singing girls, before slavery was abolished lol)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

But Mufti Ebrahim Desai born.. not sure.. but he is in his 50's now??? Says it is forbidden..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebrahim_Desai

Wearing hijab...
Sayyed Nabil Al-Haidari in a fatawa he gave, explained how the Prophet admonished the Companions if they looked at women not wearing hijab. Not the lady and he stated women were not forced to wear Hijab..

In His Name the Most High
Salaamu Alaikum Warahmat Allah Wabarakatuh

Thank you for your questions. Please refer to the answers below.

During the era of the Holy Prophet [saw] women were not forced to wear Hijab. We also have narrations of an incident where a woman came to the Holy Prophet without Hijab. In this incident, some of the companions began looking at this woman with lust and the Holy Prophet ordered them to stop looking at her.

The Holy Quran says:*edited out for brevity *

Wafaqakum Allah [swt] - May Allah bring you success.

Wasalaamu Alaikum Warahmat Allah.

Sayyed Nabil Al-Haidari

BUT! Yet, Shaykh Muhammad Nassir-ud-Deen al-Albani (Rahim Allaah)  born in 1914 says that a man is allowed to force his wife to wear a Niqab or burkah?

Shayk Abu Abdillah says any male who leaves Islam in a Islamic country. Must be killed. He just finished mufti studies a couple years back.

But Classical scholars like Ibrahim al-Nakha'i who died in 715 said that execution was not required and wrote fatawas against it..

Beating your wife... the prophet says not to..

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.  (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

But... I believe we are all aware of those so-called scholars in Pakistan who claimed it was allowed last year. (Ignorant prigs, shayk abdul raheem has a thorough fatawa showing the prophet never allowed it)

I cant think of any other ones to compare right now. If you do let me know. Mufti Abu Layth and Shayk Atabek Shukrov are always encouraging people to re connect with the Classical Islam, that taught far more acceptance then what a lot of people see these days of Islam. Almost every single issue people critical of Islam bring up, I can show within 200 years of the prophet of not being the case. Heck even one companion enjoyed, lets say the more lewd entertainment and he was never flogged or executed. But dear god help you today if you do that in a so-called Islamic country.

One Issue I will concede, is that their is so much material on Islam when you include the Quran and hadiths that it is ridiculously easy to isolate and take anything out of context. Heck, if you went looking you can find a sahih hadith were the prophet told a group of people to drink camel urine, because it was good for them.. but no where in that hadith does it tell you how those people were acting and that the prophet was basically telling them to behave. *close to the meaning*.

I believe, you believe, that I believe what I say is truth. Which is a good start. If I can get you to concede that many Classical scholars, would fit in with us at a dinner table in this day and age. I'd be happy, because that means that you accept that throughout all of Islamic history their were a group of Muslims, like myself, that have or had half a brain.. then from there it is a small jump to admitting Islam is not the problem.

Abdullah

Ps today I drove an 08 Wrangler that was pretty doctored up.. first time driving a newer jeep, have to admit I think it will go anywhere. Debating the Merits of big vs small and suv vs truck is a different thread I think you send me 10k cash, I am sure i can find you something

Pss ever since you brought up how much I post about Islamic stuff here, I have been acutely aware of it. So again I will state, I try to only post when I know something.. so being this is an armed forces site, I dont know that Much.. so I seem to be posting here and lurking the Muslim pages. But I lurk all the other threads to learn how to work the system and how to be proactive in the armed forces.

 

[Kirkhill]

Abdullah:

How are the Aga Khan and the Ismaili's perceived within Islam?  They have been around for a very long while and have had an accommodation with the west, particularly the Brits. 

Similarly, where do the Jordanians and the Omanis fit on the Islamic spectrum?

 

[AbdullahD]

Hi Chris

My knowledge of different groups within Islam is actually quite limited.  I actually think Colin may be better educated to answer this, then I am, due to his in laws. He has had exposure to very formidable people, who likely know more then I ever  will. Most of the things I touch on are actually quite basic in nature. But you asked a tough, yet simple question being; 'how' they are 'Percieved'.

Ill do my best.

Abdullah:

How are the Aga Khan and the Ismaili's perceived within Islam?  They have been around for a very long while and have had an accommodation with the west, particularly the Brits.

 

Now if I am correct Aga khan is an Ismaili..
http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/34110

And Deobandi Ulema love to call people kafr, as always. They (being Mufti Desai) do awesome research usually though, I just dont follow a lot of their fatawa that is not consistent with what I follow.

The Islamic scholars I sit with and have talked about Shia's with and my buddy who is shia and I have chatted too leads me to.. understanding the divide this way; the traditional fiqh of shia Islam is divorced from the reality on the ground, my Shia buddy has a better prayer then a lot of sunni's do too.. which is kind of funny.

So what I have been taught, that until and unless you personally see a shi'ite Muslim committing Kufr in front of you. You must consider them Muslim. Even after that if the Kufr is comitted out of ignorance of shi'ite and Sunni fiqh, then you still have to consider them Muslim.

But as far as perception within the greater Muslim world... I know shias and sunnis just love to hate eachother like ignorant fools. But my personal experience in north america has been a live and let live atmosphere over here. So I can not really talk as to that, I can only touch on the legal stuff per se.

Similarly, where do the Jordanians and the Omanis fit on the Islamic spectrum?

Now I honestly do not know why you included Jordon and Jordanian Islam. Regarding Omanis I am guessing you are talking about Ibadi form of Islam? Now my guys I usually talk to when I do not know something are awol right now, so I started some digging myself from a deobandi site.

They do not pass a fatawa on contemporary Ibadhi Muslims, but it seems the guy who wrote this fatawa is just as ignorant as I am. So I wouldnt weight it to heavily. (They called all classical Ibadhis kafr apparently though)

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/24729

Then continued with this;
http://islam.uga.edu/ibadis.html

I honestly and truely do not know anything more then this. If you wish, I can dig into it. But it seems to be a live and let live situation these days, with both sides claiming the other is wrong. Good ole religions

I do have access to Shia scholars as well as Sunni scholars.. so I am capable, but it could take a while. I prefer to talk about Fiqh stuff, less likely I'll screw up to badly.. because perception is a very fluid thing and it changes from group to group. The scholars i sit with, sit with shia scholars and i break bread with shias too.. so I am likely wearing rose colored glasses.

Sorry for not having more, I hope Colin can answer properly.. because I didnt.

Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=AbdullahD]

Music. Many Muslims consider Music as forbidden and claim 'Modern' Scholars are corrupting Islam by allowing it.[/quote]

Yet, Imam Ghazali born in 1058 says it is permissible!

But Mufti Ebrahim Desai born.. not sure.. but he is in his 50's now??? Says it is forbidden..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebrahim_Desai

Abu Abdillah says any male who leaves Islam in a Islamic country. Must be killed. He just finished mufti studies a couple years back.

But Classical scholars like Ibrahim al-Nakha'i who died in 715 said that execution was not required and wrote fatawas against it..

One Issue I will concede, is that their is so much material on Islam when you include the Quran and hadiths that it is ridiculously easy to isolate and take anything out of context.

It seems like Islam is all over the place. I would agree that you could find the same with many other religions, very liberal interpretations of something someone said 2000 years ago. If I had to sum up my feelings in a sentence I would say it seems like people who prescribe to Islam are more inclined than all other religions to resort to violence.

Pss ever since you brought up how much I post about Islamic stuff here, I have been acutely aware of it. So again I will state, I try to only post when I know something.. so being this is an armed forces site, I dont know that Much.. so I seem to be posting here and lurking the Muslim pages. But I lurk all the other threads to learn how to work the system and how to be proactive in the armed forces.

It's none of my business what you or anyone posts, please don't take what I said as a criticism against you.  I just find sometimes it can give you an insight into what someones about. Some people just post about politics and others only post about stories where CF members are featured negatively. Agendas everywhere  ;D

 

[Jarnhamar]

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=2CMmNYNjPGs

Somali born woman (turn Dutch member of parliament)  shares her views on Islam.