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Israel in the 21st Century

Fabius said:
www.ctvnews.ca

Canada to recognize state of Palestine in September, Carney says

Canada plans to recognize the state of Palestine at the next session of the United Nations General Assembly in September, Prime Minister Mark Carney announced Wednesday.
www.ctvnews.ca www.ctvnews.ca

I don’t understand, the PM says that a two state solution is no longer tenable and the chances of such have been steadily and gravely undermined by both sides therefore we will recognize Palestine as a state in Sept.
How do those go together?


I see that Canada is still making key mistakes in understanding. There is no guarantee that a democratic government in Palestine will be a liberal (small L) state. Hamas was elected democratically to a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council which is part of how we got to where we are.
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IMO this is nothing but appeasing a terrorist state. Hamas might disappear but will reinvent itself as something else.

We have learned NOTHING from the lessons of WW2.
 
Seems the intent is too recognize the Palestinian Authority led by the Fatah Party (disputed by Hamas) and whom control the Palestinian parts of the WB.
No idea where Gaza, the PLC, etc. fit in to this plan. Honestly Palestinian leadership structures seem a confused mess to me.

The entire plan and its messaging seems to indicate a desire to inflict diplomatic damage and pressure on Israel vs an actual coherent plan to further Palestinian governance and liberalization vs radicalization.
 
suffolkowner said:
Is the Palestinian state the WB or the WB and Gaza?
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Yes. This is nothing more than theatre and changes nothing on the ground. MC is just continuing the old Trudeau ways of word salads, no real action and virtue signalling to appease a minority who keep some of his MPs elected.
 
Quirky said:
Yes. This is nothing more than theatre and changes nothing on the ground. MC is just continuing the old Trudeau ways of word salads, no real action and virtue signalling to appease a minority who keep some of his MPs elected.
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So by extension of what you’re saying, Macron and Starmer are saying and doing the same thing.
 
Czech_pivo said:
So by extension of what you’re saying, Macron and Starmer are saying and doing the same thing.
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And it is wrong. Appeasing a murderous organization sponsored by a murderous, tyrannical state who's stated intent is to destroy Israel is just so wrong.
Make no mistake, Hamas might disband but they will reorg as something else which may be far worse.

"Elbows up" should be "Bend Over"
 
Canada, Britain, France and others are showing Palestinians that there is a path forward for them as a state - IF they get rid of Hamas and commit to internationally monitored processes and reforms within the Palestinian Authority. It’s putting the ball in the Palestinians’ court to reject Hamas, and showing them it’s Hamas that holds them back from what they’re asking for. There’s merit to that.

This is also a repudiation of how excessive Israeli destruction in Gaza and expansion in the West Bank has been. Because it absolutely has been excessive, it’s long past being grossly disproportionate or justifiable.

There is also, in this, an element of the withering of U.S. soft power. A couple years ago there’s no way other major western countries would have done this against US objection. Now, those objections mean much less to the rest of us. Cause of choices the U.S. has made.

Will Canadian, British, or French recognition of a Palestinian state have direct impacts on the ground? No. Israel will have to consider the cost/benefit of current and future courses of action and decide if further isolation is worth it. Losing other historical allies or at least friendly nations will place them more and more solely reliant on the U.S., which I’m not sure is a position many countries want to be in at present.

Lots going on here, lots to see how it plays out.
 
brihard said:
Canada, Britain, France and others are showing Palestinians that there is a path forward for them as a state - IF they get rid of Hamas and commit to internationally monitored processes and reforms within the Palestinian Authority. It’s putting the ball in the Palestinians’ court to reject Hamas, and showing them it’s Hamas that holds them back from what they’re asking for. There’s merit to that.

This is also a repudiation of how excessive Israeli destruction in Gaza and expansion in the West Bank has been. Because it absolutely has been excessive, it’s long past being grossly disproportionate or justifiable.

There is also, in this, an element of the withering of U.S. soft power. A couple years ago there’s no way other major western countries would have done this against US objection. Now, those objections mean much less to the rest of us. Cause of choices the U.S. has made.

Will Canadian, British, or French recognition of a Palestinian state have direct impacts on the ground? No. Israel will have to consider the cost/benefit of current and future courses of action and decide if further isolation is worth it. Losing other historical allies or at least friendly nations will place them more and more solely reliant on the U.S., which I’m not sure is a position many countries want to be in at present.

Lots going on here, lots to see how it plays out.
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And Trump is saying that Canada's recognition of a Palestinian state "will make it very hard for us to make a Trade Deal with them".

 
Carney can channel his inner Albertan and slightly modify the historical rant of "let the eastern American bastards freeze in the dark".
 
Fabius said:
... There is no guarantee that a democratic government in Palestine will be a liberal (small L) state. Hamas was elected democratically to a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council which is part of how we got to where we are.
Click to expand...
No guarantees, BUT ....
brihard said:
Canada, Britain, France and others are showing Palestinians that there is a path forward for them as a state - IF they get rid of Hamas and commit to internationally monitored processes and reforms within the Palestinian Authority ...
Click to expand...
... with this from the horse's mouth/info-machine directly (highlights mine - statement also attached if link doesn't work):
... This intention is predicated on the Palestinian Authority’s commitment to much-needed reforms, including the commitments by Palestinian Authority President Abbas to fundamentally reform its governance, to hold general elections in 2026 in which Hamas can play no part, and to demilitarize the Palestinian state ... We reiterate that Hamas must immediately release all hostages taken in the horrific terrorist attack of October 7; that Hamas must disarm; and that Hamas must play no role in the future governance of Palestine ...
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What're the odds of that being able to happen? Let's see how it goes ...
 

Attachments

The western countries seem to believe that the Palestinian Authority has power over the West Bank and Gaza.
From what I can gather there is no consensus among Palestinians that the Palestinian Authority gets to represent them and it certainly doesn’t have much power or influence in Gaza.

I wonder what the western countries think the Palestinian Authority actually has power and influence over. I am not sure there are actual ways and means for the PA to do what the three western countries think they should do.
 
Fabius said:
... I wonder what the western countries think the Palestinian Authority actually has power and influence over. I am not sure there are actual ways and means for the PA to do what the three western countries think they should do.
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THAT's the big question right there. If they want international recognition, they now know what needs to be done.
 
Fabius said:
The western countries seem to believe that the Palestinian Authority has power over the West Bank and Gaza.
From what I can gather there is no consensus among Palestinians that the Palestinian Authority gets to represent them and it certainly doesn’t have much power or influence in Gaza.

I wonder what the western countries think the Palestinian Authority actually has power and influence over. I am not sure there are actual ways and means for the PA to do what the three western countries think they should do.
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Hence the requirement to "to hold general elections in 2026".

The resulting government wouldn't necessarily be the current Palestinian Authority. And if the Palestinian people decide to FAFO and elect a government that isn't willing to do what needs to be done to maintain peaceful coexistence with Israel then they won't get recognized.
 
GR66 said:
Hence the requirement to "to hold general elections in 2026".

The resulting government wouldn't necessarily be the current Palestinian Authority. And if the Palestinian people decide to FAFO and elect a government that isn't willing to do what needs to be done to maintain peaceful coexistence with Israel then they won't get recognized.
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Israel doesn’t want peaceful coexistence. They have actively done whatever they can to undermine a peaceful diplomatic solution. Helping fund and set up Hamas, creating/supporting the settler groups, actively annexing territory, etc.

The international community has a obligation to force Israel to behave better or we should give them the apartheid South Africa/Rhodesia treatment. They won’t act the way they do with no new arms coming in and financial sanctions in place.

Recognizing Palestine doesn’t necessarily do that, but the harsher methods I would prefer to force compliance is unlikely to happen as well due to realpolitik.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
Israel doesn’t Netanyahu/Settlers/Ultra-Nationalists don't want peaceful coexistence. They have actively done whatever they can to undermine a peaceful diplomatic solution. Helping fund and set up Hamas, creating/supporting the settler groups, actively annexing territory, etc.
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FTFY. The current Israeli Government and it's supporters don't want peaceful coexistence. If the situation on the Palestinian side were to change (and that's a HUGE if) it's possible that the Israeli side might shift as well.

And let's be realistic, there will not be a Palestinian state any time in the immediate future. MUCH has to change on both sides (including key players moving out of the picture) before the preconditions are in place for even the first steps toward statehood are taken.

The declarations by Canada and other nations is simply an expression to Israel that the path to peace between Israel and the Palestinians is through some form of negotiated settlement rather than the current attempts to solve it through force.
 
GR66 said:
Hence the requirement to "to hold general elections in 2026".

The resulting government wouldn't necessarily be the current Palestinian Authority. And if the Palestinian people decide to FAFO and elect a government that isn't willing to do what needs to be done to maintain peaceful coexistence with Israel then they won't get recognized.
Click to expand...

Where are the general elections going to be held?
WB, Gaza, both? What Palestinian organization has authority and control over terrain and population to do this election?
 
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