Israel in the 21st Century

[The Bread Guy]

FTFY. The current Israeli Government and it's supporters don't want peaceful coexistence. If the situation on the Palestinian side were to change (and that's a HUGE if) it's possible that the Israeli side might shift as well ...

Significant nuance you pointed out right there.

After all, we've also seen former Israeli governments happy seeing future leaders of Hamas do their thing as a way to weaken the PLO, right?

GOLDSTEIN: Israel’s enormous blunder — it helped to create Hamas

While it’s hard to imagine in today’s context, Israel actually encouraged the creation of Hamas, leading up to its founding in 1987.

torontosun.com

If the Palestinian dynamic changes, ISR could change its approach.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sigh, Western feelgoodism, condemning the region to another generation of conflict. Anyone with half a braincell should be able to see this is going to be spun by the remnants of Hamas as a "Victory" to justify their actions and the suffering of the population. You are legitimizing Oct 7th and continued holding of hostages. The west lack of desire to hold agencies like the UNRWA accountable over the years helped create this problem. Also pretending that the PA holds any real authority is a laugh. Their corruption and failures has allowed Hamas to seize Gaza and gain a foothold in the WB. Hams wants to use the WB to conduct a new Oct 7th and it would be a much worse event giving the size, terrain and lack of defensive structures.
We need to stay the eff out of it and maybe focus on dealing with some of the other conflicts which are much worse than this.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

All I can see happening here is Carney is going to piss off some allies, but more important, he's legitimiziing and embolding the Free Gaza movement, here in Canada. Instead of quelling all the rallies, protests and public disobedience, he's handing them carte blanche to clog our streets, inconvenience Canadians and it gives him a place to park money. When he says he recognises them, what he is really saying is we will be sending all kinds of grants and foreign aid (that we don’t have) to rebuild and re-establish. It might be a little different if we were supporting democracy, but Palestine will be anything but.

Trump and Netanyahu won't be happy with his meddling in their plans.

 

[OldSolduer]

Significant nuance you pointed out right there.

After all, we've also seen former Israeli governments were happy seeing future leaders of Hamas do their thing as a way to weaken the PLO, right?

GOLDSTEIN: Israel’s enormous blunder — it helped to create Hamas

While it’s hard to imagine in today’s context, Israel actually encouraged the creation of Hamas, leading up to its founding in 1987.

torontosun.com

If the Palestinian dynamic changes, ISR could change its approach.

This won’t go well. Hamas and Iran’s end goal is to destroy Israel.
I can’t see the overthrow of Hamas.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This won’t go well. Hamas and Iran’s end goal is to destroy Israel.
I can’t see the overthrow of Hamas.

Any move towards legitimacy and statehood needs to come with ironclad guarantees and extreme penalties for any kind of interference with Israel, whether political or kinetic.

 

[Eaglelord17]

So collaboration with Iran and Qatar to resource Hamas? References?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035

Basically nationalists like Netanyahu like groups like Hamas because it allows them to pursue their maximalist goals. Having reasonable people to negotiate with weakens their cause of owning all of Palestine/Israel.

Yes recognizing Palestine could be seen as supporting groups like Hamas. However not recognizing Palestine can be seen as supporting undermining a diplomatic peace process as nationalists in Israel have actively been doing for decades with beneficial results for their cause. Basically we start to force their hand and tell them that their tactics won’t work or they will eventually annex the whole area at the cost of many lives.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035

Basically nationalists like Netanyahu like groups like Hamas because it allows them to pursue their maximalist goals. Having reasonable people to negotiate with weakens their cause of owning all of Palestine/Israel.

Yes recognizing Palestine could be seen as supporting groups like Hamas. However not recognizing Palestine can be seen as supporting undermining a diplomatic peace process as nationalists in Israel have actively been doing for decades with beneficial results for their cause. Basically we start to force their hand and tell them that their tactics won’t work or they will eventually annex the whole area at the cost of many lives.

The Palestinian "nationalists" failed years ago when Hamas took over Gaza. Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood and then also a proxy for Iran. They have never served the interests of the people. The PA was also an organization meant to protect one man and his clan, as they descended into infighting, corruption and being totally ineffective, to the point where Hamas looks like the only other option. This despite the efforts of Israel and the West in propping up the PA for decades.

We tried everything it did not work. The Palestinian population is growing and there is not enough land/water for both populations to succeed. Creating a Palestinian State within the borders of Israel is just dooming the region to generations of conflict. We be way better off paying Palestinians to leave and pushing Arab and Muslim countries other than Syria, Lebanon and Jordon to take them.

 

[Good2Golf]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035

Basically nationalists like Netanyahu like groups like Hamas because it allows them to pursue their maximalist goals. Having reasonable people to negotiate with weakens their cause of owning all of Palestine/Israel.

Yes recognizing Palestine could be seen as supporting groups like Hamas. However not recognizing Palestine can be seen as supporting undermining a diplomatic peace process as nationalists in Israel have actively been doing for decades with beneficial results for their cause. Basically we start to force their hand and tell them that their tactics won’t work or they will eventually annex the whole area at the cost of many lives.

Those references describe Netanyahu working to some degree collaboratively with Hamas (the elected Authority in Gaza) to support Gazans inside the strip, not setting up and funding to conduct ops, as you implied earlier.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The Palestinian "nationalists" failed years ago when Hamas took over Gaza. Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood and then also a proxy for Iran. They have never served the interests of the people. The PA was also an organization meant to protect one man and his clan, as they descended into infighting, corruption and being totally ineffective, to the point where Hamas looks like the only other option. This despite the efforts of Israel and the West in propping up the PA for decades.

We tried everything it did not work. The Palestinian population is growing and there is not enough land/water for both populations to succeed. Creating a Palestinian State within the borders of Israel is just dooming the region to generations of conflict. We be way better off paying Palestinians to leave and pushing Arab and Muslim countries other than Syria, Lebanon and Jordon to take them.

All 3 of those countries are not viable options.
The Syrian civil war basically started because of a prolonged drought and the rising of local taxes by an out of touch government. Clearly not enough local resources available.
Jordan will never accept more as it would at a minimum unstablize the Monarchy.
Lebanon is a shit show and it would lead to even more Israeli intervention there.
Egypt is over populated, lacking in resources and a stable, viable government.

 

[Quirky]

So by extension of what you’re saying, Macron and Starmer are saying and doing the same thing.

Yup, let’s copy the France guy so we don’t get one-up’d in the absolute apex of virtue signalling. Holy fuck. We are witnessing ignorance the world hasn’t seen since “let them eat cake”. Carney puts his elbows up for 50k Palestinian Canadians who he needs to keep LPC elected.

 

[OldSolduer]

D & B could shed more light on this but IIRC the IRA and the PIRAs both had political wings who swore up and down they had no contact with terrorists.
So beware ANY new Palestinian entity that claims to have no contact with terrorists.

Just my two cents.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Those references describe Netanyahu working to some degree collaboratively with Hamas (the elected Authority in Gaza) to support Gazans inside the strip, not setting up and funding to conduct ops, as you implied earlier.

It's subtle, but you're right. Not much "trail" there for funding from the old days, but it was .... convenient for ISR to not be all that worried about the guy who'd end up heading Hamas being one of a whole gaggle of groups "representing" Palestinian interests (about a dozen at one point) milling about amongst each other to prevent any single, bigly-unified opposition from melding. #DivideAndConquer seems to be biting ISR on the butt right now.

See also: "Hey, let's help out these Muslims fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan - what can possibly go wrong?"

 

[brihard]

I’m impressed by the balance and nuance in the position put out by MP Anthony Housefather:

 

[Czech_pivo]

I’m impressed by the balance and nuance in the position put out by MP Anthony Housefather:

100%

 

[Remius]

So by extension of what you’re saying, Macron and Starmer are saying and doing the same thing.

I think what we might also be seeing is France trying to flex a bit and test the waters in an attempt to to become the presumptive leader of the free world given the US has pulled itself from wanting to continue in that role.

How many other countries follow their lead is the telling part.