Jeans & mass punishment? #2

[medicineman]

Based on what you've quoted, the CDS is not saying that there should be no dress code or that everybody should be able to wear jeans downtown.  He's simply saying that perhaps a dress uniform is over the top.  There was a time that junior Mil Col cadets had to wear actual dress uniforms downtown on the weekends and they looked really out of place in the King's Hotel in Victoria.  Taken in context, dress trousers and open collar shirts for all cadets is incredibly progressive compared to what it used to be.

When I was rowing up in Victoria, you could tell what year the RRMC cadets were by what they wore off campus...

MM

 

[sandyson]

This is a foolish response but by god does this sort of attitude make me angry:
"We waived this requirement for these Cadets and they will be receiving additional instruction, free of charge and still be allowed to complete their degree afterwards without any financial penalty."
Not only are the cadets not suitable for leadership, neither are the people making that decision.  Here in the private sector, if you want to be generous you pay for it.  So!  Since you're so generous (with other people's money) you pay for it.  GD governments think money just happens.

 

[Strike]

This is a foolish response but by god does this sort of attitude make me angry:
"We waived this requirement for these Cadets and they will be receiving additional instruction, free of charge and still be allowed to complete their degree afterwards without any financial penalty."
Not only are the cadets not suitable for leadership, neither are the people making that decision.  Here in the private sector, if you want to be generous you pay for it.  So!  Since you're so generous (with other people's money) you pay for it.  GD governments think money just happens.

You have to take into consideration that the college has been in flux for the past several years, trying to find its place again.  The position of DCdts has changed 4 or more times in as many years and with it so have some of the standards wrt the college requirements - pillar system or just education or more military elements, less military elements.  It has resulted in a small number of cadets being lost in this weird flux and these are the ones who are having issues (with French at least).  This is what I've been told by a cadet acquaintance in 3rd year and another in 4th.  If the college were to give them the boot the resulting redress would have likely resulted in them being given their college degree and commissioning.  So the school is doing whatever they can to fix the mess that some of these students are finding themselves in through no fault of their own.

 

[pbi]

...Starting in 2011 though, the number of Cadets unable to meet the standards steadily climbed from 5-10% to a high of 35% in 2015.  Which the SSAV identified as a major issue...Something like 50-60% of first year Cadets are unable to meet the minimum standard of physical fitness at RMC.

We can no longer recruit people that meet the standard so something needed to change.  This could partially explain the morale problems at the school so we've had to make drastic changes.

This is dismal. Are there no physically fit young people out there, or do fit young people have no interest in joining as officers?

 

[daftandbarmy]

This is dismal. Are there no physically fit young people out there, or do fit young people have no interest in joining as officers?

These days, the recruits tend to have very powerful thumbs ....

 

[Downhiller229]

This is a bit ridiculous... By the way don't forget that RMC grads are the model officers in the CAF...

I'm incredulous on two fronts. Mainly that some of those affected went to the media to complain. And two that these kid's lives are so strictly regulated. What happens when they get let loose into the wild and actually have to fend for themselves after they have had every waking moment of their existence planned for them down to their attire?

What's the incentive in going to that school anyway? From what I hear I wouldn't want to send my kids there?

For what it's worth I commend everyone involved with the school, it's an impossible task. It doesn't seem much maturity is being developed there... I guess to each his own.

The CAF strikes again with the amazing media portrayal, luckily we had the GBU-raft to balance this one out.

 

[McG]

What's the incentive in going to that school anyway? From what I hear I wouldn't want to send my kids there?

Maybe it’s the free education with a pay cheque and four years earned toward a pension?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Maybe it’s the free education with a pay cheque and four years earned toward a pension?

Nah, that's cray talk. I'd send my kids just for the fun of watching them run around in an organ grinder's monkey hat for four years. You can't buy memories like that.

 

[Downhiller229]

Maybe it’s the free education with a pay cheque and four years earned toward a pension?

I'll rephrase that. Why go to RMC when you can go civy-U or better yet for pilots go to Seneca and be a captain at 20 years old.

The prestige doesn't impress anyone anymore, so why put yourself through that.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'll rephrase that. Why go to RMC when you can go civy-U or better yet for pilots go to Seneca and be a captain at 20 years old.

The prestige doesn't impress anyone anymore, so why put yourself through that.

Pilots have no prestige?? Quick, look out your window. Is the street full of guys in coveralls and Buzz Lightyear helmets? If so, you better run. Those are fighter pilots. 

 

[pbi]

I'll rephrase that. Why go to RMC when you can go civy-U or better yet for pilots go to Seneca and be a captain at 20 years old.

The prestige doesn't impress anyone anymore, so why put yourself through that.

I'm not sure your last statement is true.

I started my commissioned service with only a high school diploma, obtaining my degree many years later as a senior Major, through the University Training Plan for Officers at two civvy universities. I have no dog in the RMC fight.

That said, I think that being a graduate of RMC still holds a certain attraction and even prestige. Being a graduate of that institution is an achievement. They aren't automatically better officers than those of us who came up by other routes, but they are by and large good officers in my experience.

As for "putting yourself through that", maybe it is the willingness to put up with some suffering, sacrifice and pressure to get what you want, which is (or should be) the status of a commissioned officer in the CAF. RMC isn't just a place to get a degree: there are lots of easier ways to do that. The degree is just a step on the way to a larger goal: to be a good officer.

And that seems to be the crux of the debate here: are the protesting cadets demonstrating the traits of good officers, or of entitled whiners who picked the wrong career?

 

[Downhiller229]

As for "putting yourself through that", maybe it is the willingness to put up with some suffering, sacrifice and pressure to get what you want, which is (or should be) the status of a commissioned officer in the CAF. RMC isn't just a place to get a degree: there are lots of easier ways to do that. The degree is just a step on the way to a larger goal: to be a good officer.

And that seems to be the crux of the debate here: are the protesting cadets demonstrating the traits of good officers, or of entitled whiners who picked the wrong career?

I actually find this quite interesting. And to be sure we're on the same page a lot of my good friends are RMC grads and I hold nothing against the institution itself. I just think the potential issues it has aren't necessarily looked at in the right order.

So you pose the question about wether those cadets are officers we want in the military because of the behaviour they have displayed. So are those undesirables a product of the system or are they the only ones we can get through the door? Someone referred earlier in the thread that there was a problem with cadets meeting the fitness standard. Again is that representative of society as a whole or does it show that RMC isn't necessarily an institution where people flock to.

On one side we are trying to pretend that it is the gold standard by which we want our leaders trained, on the other we allow programs like Seneca to be developed which basically says "screw you guys we just need pilots and now!"

So it's hard to try and justify this whole dog and pony show when you have conflicting messages like that.

 

[stellarpanther]

While I've said several times I don't condone going to media, what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.  I know there are policies against going to the media but I've heard civilians wonder out loud what the CAF is afraid of if they think they are right.
 

 

[Strike]

While I've said several times I don't condone going to media, what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.  I know there are policies against going to the media but I've heard civilians wonder out loud what the CAF is afraid of if they think they are right.

Maybe they should use the system the way it's meant to be used, and realize that not everything in life is going to result in the immediate gratification that they've been raised with.

That's part of the issue and a reflection of the immaturity and inexperience.  Yes, the system works slowly.  That's the reality.  Just because you really want something and you feel it is a right and just cause/argument, doesn't mean it's going to happen right away.  Thankfully they are in a training system and have the chance to learn all of this.

 

[mariomike]

what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen. 

Ombudsman?
"Members of the Defence community must first use existing internal review mechanisms (e.g., the Canadian Forces grievance process, the public service grievance and complaints process, etc.) before the office can initiate a review or begin an investigation."

Looks like some reached out to a lawyer. The lawyer spoke to the media,

"Fowler currently represents multiple cadets at the college who have reached out to him about the loss of privileges."

 

[pbi]

While I've said several times I don't condone going to media, what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.  I know there are policies against going to the media but I've heard civilians wonder out loud what the CAF is afraid of if they think they are right.

Who said the CoC didn't listen? Listen doesn't automatically mean "agree". Maybe they listened, but they considered the complaint and have decided to stick with their principles.

 

[mariomike]

Who said the CoC didn't listen? Listen doesn't automatically mean "agree". Maybe they listened, but they considered the complaint and have decided to stick with their principles.

Sounds like marriage. 

 

[pbi]

I actually find this quite interesting. ... So it's hard to try and justify this whole dog and pony show when you have conflicting messages like that.

This is Canada, so unless there's a war on, nobody "flocks" to anything to do with the military. They never have. It will always be a minority who choose a military career, and an even smaller slice of that who choose to become officers.

So are those undesirables a product of the system or are they the only ones we can get through the door?

According to what Humphrey Bogart has been telling us from his insider perspective, they appear to be products of a system that has fallen into a very bad and almost rudderless state, but is now being salvaged. I recently had the privelige to speak to one of the classes there on a topic of recent military history. I was very impressed by the calibre of the cadets I met, and of their thirst to learn more about their profession.

On one side we are trying to pretend that it is the gold standard by which we want our leaders trained, on the other we allow programs like Seneca to be developed which basically says "screw you guys we just need pilots and now!

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at with this comparison. Seneca College is a community college, run on business lines, which is mainly involved in teaching technical skills to civilians. RMC is an institution for training military officers as completely rounded professionals, of which technical skill is only a small part. I don't see the relevance of what Seneca College does or doesn't do in comparison to RMC: it's apples and oranges.

 

[Downhiller229]

Ahh so you agree with me then.

Are you aware that out of high school I can choose to go to Seneca college to become a CF pilot. Earning commission at 18 years old and becoming a captain shortly after earning my pilot wings at ~21 years old? So are the Seneca officers a lesser caliber then the ones who spent 4 years at RMC? How do you justify spending 4 years as an officer cadet when you could be a 2Lt and a captain years before someone who started RMC the same day as you? It has to be difficult to motivate people to go in that environment when you give out such a sweet deal on the other side. So yeah it's apples and oranges but not according to the CAF

 

[kratz]

[quote author=Downhiller229]
How do you justify spending 4 years as an officer cadet when you could be a 2Lt and a captain years before someone who started RMC the same day as you?[/quote]

- If you have access to funds to pay for the Seneca route, good for you.
- 4 years of pensionable time = ability to retire from the CAF sooner with a 27 year career, ahead of the Seneca method.
- Networking. It's been often observed, RMC graduates are better networked than DEO.

The pros and cons of an entry plan are highly individual, based on the choices a young person has available to them.