Jerry Amernic: The downfall of Canada’s military

[foresterab]

Do you think that having wifi, or any other communications infrastructure that isn't restricted to DND/DWAN, or resembles anything introduced to the wider civilian marketplace since the 1980s, might be an adavantge in an emergency? If so, you can discount about 80% of those armouries from the get go.

Ironically, all the ones built of brick in the '19 teens' will likely fall down in a moderate earthquake, so that might solve an infrastructure problem or two

Fully aware there are some pretty sketchy buildings....maintenance issues are not the only found with DND . That being said if I have a building with somewhat restricted access (i.e. not an open field), that can have enough room to have a comms tower for cell signal/wifi then we're probably rolling. Beats trying to do it off of truck tailgates via cell phones and laptops exposed to the elements....but you do what you need to do to get the job done the best you can with the resources on hand.

One of the biggest issues I often see is the ICP is set up on based upon land that can be used and it's not always clear where you are going...sucks to go hours out of the way due checking at the major town...only to be told to go back the way you came to hit the ICP because "no space here". Anything that you can do to better streamline the communications as to where to mobilize/meet/plan can significantly help....turn at the big rock doesn't always help when you're coming from 3 or 4 different directions.

Nature of emergency will also drastically change the comms needs and not all jurisdictions can talk to each other easy...but I've also seen major events successfully handled by establishing a meeting point and have two agency leads stay paired at the hip under unified command to pass similar commands via two completely separate radio nets - all resources accounted for and common direction = success.

 

[bgc_fan]

100% agree the MOU's need to be established, including both access limitations (I should not have access to weapon systems for example) and cost payment for wear and tear at minimum. The fact it is federal property can be dealt with, and must be dealt with, in advance but currently we have MOU's to deal with fires at CFB Cold Lake, National Parks (fringe until MOU gets activated or they ask), Indian Reserves (each reserve is separate agreements) and dealing with various sites ranging from meteorological stations to air traffic radars.

Contracts signed on the fly can be done...but it's a whole level of stress that should not be occurring for both responding agencies, DND, and local populace. Both the federal gov't and insurance industry have been placing increased pressure on all provinces to have the contingency planning in place in part to have the training and more importantly - timely effective response to a disaster - based upon some hard lessons learned. While there is no "local" units for me I can see the Armory of the Calgary Highlanders working as a backup ICP if the City of Calgary site is compromised for example under another 2013 High River Flood situation.

There are standardized prices and costs for this sort of thing. Like I said, it can be done, but ideally ahead of time and not in the middle of a crisis. But it has to be pointed out it isn't as simple as pulling out desks and computers because most old armouries are so antiquated that they don't have any useful IT infrastructure. If you're just looking for a big empty place, it can work, but you have to be aware of the limitations and this has to be known ahead of time.

 

[foresterab]

There are standardized prices and costs for this sort of thing. Like I said, it can be done, but ideally ahead of time and not in the middle of a crisis. But it has to be pointed out it isn't as simple as pulling out desks and computers because most old armouries are so antiquated that they don't have any useful IT infrastructure. If you're just looking for a big empty place, it can work, but you have to be aware of the limitations and this has to be known ahead of time.

Seen, heard and agree 100%. Last several major incidents I've been on have been run out of a hockey rink (ice out), Royal Canadian Legion common room (bar was off limits ), Rural hall, and a school. Tons of extension cords running to computers sitting on a folding table/chair and if needed a mobile cell booster/satellite linkage outside to give the comms linkage. Ideally we'd use a designated well set up with all the gizmo's center and many have been also run from these but they also have limitations on expansion.

 

[bgc_fan]

Seen, heard and agree 100%. Last several major incidents I've been on have been run out of a hockey rink (ice out), Royal Canadian Legion common room (bar was off limits ), Rural hall, and a school. Tons of extension cords running to computers sitting on a folding table/chair and if needed a mobile cell booster/satellite linkage outside to give the comms linkage. Ideally we'd use a designated well set up with all the gizmo's center and many have been also run from these but they also have limitations on expansion.

Actually, you mentioning tons of extension cords just gave me shivers. Many of the old armouries would have limited electrical capacity and you may need to bring in a genset.

 

[lenaitch]

Try to grab the high school rather than an elementary though...seats are much better

Memories of travelling courts held in remote communities come flooding back when someone booked the local public school - junior grades - come flooding back. Quite a sight to see a bunch of cops, lawyers and the judge jammed into tiny plastic seats.

Seen, heard and agree 100%. Last several major incidents I've been on have been run out of a hockey rink (ice out), Royal Canadian Legion common room (bar was off limits ), Rural hall, and a school. Tons of extension cords running to computers sitting on a folding table/chair and if needed a mobile cell booster/satellite linkage outside to give the comms linkage. Ideally we'd use a designated well set up with all the gizmo's center and many have been also run from these but they also have limitations on expansion.

The Canadian Blood Services have gone wireless and connected with their travelling clinics. Everything deploys from wheeled hard cases and is set up in a very short time, including Internet connection with an external tripod antenna. It seems to be pretty slick. Our local one is usually held in the Legion or community centre so seems to get by on typical institutional power set-ups.

In Ontario, lead for emergency preparedness is at the municipal level. It seems that most small municipalities seem to have identified either the fire hall or municipal offices for their EOC. I imagine available space can vary. If nothing else, it's their property so things like agreements, conflict with normal usage, insurance, etc. are avoided.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There are standardized prices and costs for this sort of thing. Like I said, it can be done, but ideally ahead of time and not in the middle of a crisis. But it has to be pointed out it isn't as simple as pulling out desks and computers because most old armouries are so antiquated that they don't have any useful IT infrastructure. If you're just looking for a big empty place, it can work, but you have to be aware of the limitations and this has to be known ahead of time.

Particularly when you neglect to contract for the IT and phone installation, when doing a major reno on a armouries.

 

[GK .Dundas]

If you do decide to put in an emergency operations centre. For the love of God please make it larger then the glorified broom closet the City of Winnipeg uses.
It sure looked pretty though after the rebuild it went through.
And rather badly thought out from what I could tell. Did I mention too small as well?

 

[Furniture]

If you do decide to put in an emergency operations centre. For the love of God please make it larger then the glorified broom closet the City of Winnipeg uses.
It sure looked pretty though after the rebuild it went through.
And rather badly thought out from what I could tell. Did I mention too small as well?

The CFB Esquimalt Fire Hall is likely the best model to use. It has dedicated spaces for Emergency Management to muster, and has comms networks to work both Military and Civvy side.

 

[Grimey]

Do you think that having wifi, or any other communications infrastructure that isn't restricted to DND/DWAN, or resembles anything introduced to the wider civilian marketplace since the 1980s, might be an adavantge in an emergency? If so, you can discount about 80% of those armouries from the get go.

Ironically, all the ones built of brick in the '19 teens' will likely fall down in a moderate earthquake, so that might solve an infrastructure problem or two

Providing they have buttresses like your old one, maybe not. On the other hand, the dairy across the road…..

 

[Spencer100]

Do you think that having wifi, or any other communications infrastructure that isn't restricted to DND/DWAN, or resembles anything introduced to the wider civilian marketplace since the 1980s, might be an adavantge in an emergency? If so, you can discount about 80% of those armouries from the get go.

Ironically, all the ones built of brick in the '19 teens' will likely fall down in a moderate earthquake, so that might solve an infrastructure problem or two

The old brick armouries will be standing long after the new ones are gone.

But this is the world we live in. We can't work in an old building nope we need a new one. So they put the new in an out of the way place. But with good parking. But then enlistment is down...hmmmm...wonder why because no one even knows there's a unit in town. No community engagement. Yup close close the HMCS stone frigate....put new one in an out of the way place. (Let the old one become an eyesore) look no one's joining up. No one riding the bus in uniform to the armory. So no kids see them and say that look interesting that guy is doing something interesting in a uniform. (Workedfor me and some friends)

Everyone complains about the many little cap badges and tiny regiments in the reserve system. Start using it as a positive not a negative. Engage with the city and community, the schools etc. This is the Royal bla bla that did this. Would you like to be a part of this?

The public so rarely sees anyone in uniform now they have to put out a news flash that a unit is training in the area the public many see a largish green truck....don't be scared. Unbelievable. There was a time a unit ran around the downtown core with arms and everything. I remember them breaking out the snow shoes when it snowed like 1 to 2 inches and marching around downtown with whites and rifles.

 

[quadrapiper]

I'd guess he meant it as a generic example.

Most COs are one step away from being a non-serving member; I wouldn't pay much attention to their opinions.

I did, thanks - though it was drawing on Vancouver Island circumstances.

Nanaimo Military Camp had, for many years, a ratty collection of IIRC two-story (maybe three?) barracks, a big drill shed/sports space/etc. cube of a building, and some ancillary odds and ends. Quite raggedy, in desperate need of replacement, but in concept a flexible and useful facility.

The replacement turned out to be a collection of offices and classroom spaces wrapped around a not terribly large drill/vehicle/etc. space: no quarters, few showers, and a building that overall doesn't seem terribly flexible. This site is now hosting a variety of courses: I think Basic and/or initial infantry training; regardless, if I'm understanding the length and intensity correctly, the sort of thing where being able to house trainees might be both convenient and a retention aid.

The halls are, however, lined with lockers: I can't recall the exact size, but if they're individual stowage, that can't help but encourage reservists to be invisible on their way too and from training.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's not that simple. The issue is that there is a lot of sentiment wrapped up with the old armouries. So even if they are unfit for purpose, the current occupants will do their best to fight to remain. You can build the best, modern armoury, but unless you get rid of the old ones, you're not going to get units to move. And getting rid of the old ones is a political decision. You should ask yourself why these old armouries are still around if they don't serve their purpose. It's because you get MPs, MPPs, local politicians, and other prominent businesspeople raising a stink whenever the possibility comes up.

The old brick armouries will be standing long after the new ones are gone.

But this is the world we live in. We can't work in an old building nope we need a new one. So they put the new in an out of the way place. But with good parking. But then enlistment is down...hmmmm...wonder why because no one even knows there's a unit in town. No community engagement. Yup close close the HMCS stone frigate....put new one in an out of the way place. (Let the old one become an eyesore) look no one's joining up. No one riding the bus in uniform to the armory. So no kids see them and say that look interesting that guy is doing something interesting in a uniform. (Workedfor me and some friends)

Everyone complains about the many little cap badges and tiny regiments in the reserve system. Start using it as a positive not a negative. Engage with the city and community, the schools etc. This is the Royal bla bla that did this. Would you like to be a part of this?

The public so rarely sees anyone in uniform now they have to put out a news flash that a unit is training in the area the public many see a largish green truck....don't be scared. Unbelievable. There was a time a unit ran around the downtown core with arms and everything. I remember them breaking out the snow shoes when it snowed like 1 to 2 inches and marching around downtown with whites and rifles.

Yeah, don't know where you guys got that info from. Unless it's your opinion. It's more common than you think. We gave our old armouries and did a land swap with the the city. We now have a bigger, better armoury and police training centre, shared facility built by the city. The city sold the armoury to the university, who gutted it and turned it into a concert hall, redeveloped two blocks and added it to the University Arts Program, downtown campus. We moved old to new in 2004. Other cities/ DND, have followed the same sort of deals in the last 18 years. It's not hard if done properly where every one is a winner and doesn't feel screwed. Basic sales/negotiation acumen.

And our downtown stone frigate? Closed and given to the city. City gave land on the river for the new HMCS Hunter, including its own quay.

 

[mariomike]

In Ontario, lead for emergency preparedness is at the municipal level.

I imagine most municipalities have an Emergency Plan.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/9593-Emergency-Plan-2021-2022-01-11-FINAL.pdf

 

[bgc_fan]

Yeah, don't know where you guys got that info from. Unless it's your opinion. It's more common than you think. We gave our old armouries and did a land swap with the the city. We now have a bigger, better armoury and police training centre, shared facility built by the city. The city sold the armoury to the university, who gutted it and turned it into a concert hall, redeveloped two blocks and added it to the University Arts Program, downtown campus. We moved old to new in 2004. Other cities/ DND, have followed the same sort of deals in the last 18 years. It's not hard if done properly where every one is a winner and doesn't feel screwed. Basic sales/negotiation acumen.

And our downtown stone frigate? Closed and given to the city. City gave land on the river for the new HMCS Hunter, including its own quay.

You are talking about almost 20 years ago and I am talking about today while working for Directorate of land Infrastructure and ADM(IE), so my information is a little more current than yours.

Edit: and my experience is with army armories not naval.

 

[Remius]

You are talking about almost 20 years ago and I am talking about today while working for Directorate of land Infrastructure and ADM(IE), so my information is a little more current than yours.

Edit: and my experience is with army armories not naval.

So are you saying that there is money for new armouries and drill halls? Because 33 Fd art has been living in tents, iso trailers and sprung shelters for some time (years) at uplands and would welcome the news.

 

[bgc_fan]

So are you saying that there is money for new armouries and drill halls? Because 33 Fd art has been living in tents, iso trailers and sprung shelters for some time (years) at uplands and would welcome the news.

That was a bone of contention, and can't say what happened in the past 2 or 3 years. When I was with DLI, MND made the big announcement about strengthening the army reserve which was supposed to mean cash for the reserves.... what it really meant was that RP Ops would account armoury projects separately to account for reserve spending, so no actual cash. I am aware of 33 Fd Arty, as I did visit to take a look at the time. While the need is there, I don't recall the status of the project if it existed. I remember at the time there was a focus on finding accommodations for the Alta Vista occupants because of the fact that we were divesting that building... ongoing for almost 20 years at the time.

So briefly, is there money? I can't say that there are current funded projects. However, ADM(IE) is/was working on a armoury rationalization plan as well as establishing a baseline unit entitlement (last standards were 30 years old I think). These were in process when I was working in the DLI. That said, the expectation is that funds would follow those studies, which would examine the major cities. NCR was one of them, so who could say? The intent is there, whether the money will follow is another issue. But even assuming there are approved funds, it will take time to design unless we go with a site adapt, but that can lead to its own issues as what was designed for one unit(s) may not work for another.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You are talking about almost 20 years ago and I am talking about today while working for Directorate of land Infrastructure and ADM(IE), so my information is a little more current than yours.

Edit: and my experience is with army armories not naval.

What this tells me is that we had a workable and viable plan that allowed us to swap for better facilities, real estate and be community contributing. That, allowed us, to upgrade facilities across Canada.

Then NDHQ showed up to help and we're back to square one because you guys threw a spanner into the works. The Reserve Colonel that negotiated our swap is still alive and frequents Ottawa. Perhaps you should ask him how he took care of all the same problems you're having difficulty with. I'm guessing you still have our file. Perhaps you should have a look at it, while working for Directorate of land Infrastructure and ADM(IE), with your information that is a little more current than mine. Or maybe ask your RCN counterparts the secret of their success, that continues to escape your office.

 

[bgc_fan]

What this tells me is that we had a workable and viable plan that allowed us to swap for better facilities, real estate and be community contributing. That, allowed us, to upgrade facilities across Canada.

Then NDHQ showed up to help and we're back to square one because you guys threw a spanner into the works. The Reserve Colonel that negotiated our swap is still alive and frequents Ottawa. Perhaps you should ask him how he took care of all the same problems you're having difficulty with. I'm guessing you still have our file. Perhaps you should have a look at it, while working for Directorate of land Infrastructure and ADM(IE), with your information that is a little more current than mine. Or maybe ask your RCN counterparts the secret of their success, that continues to escape your office.

Not sure why you need to be so hostile about the whole thing. I don't recall the exact history, but that time period could have coincided with a previous rationalization process which may have made things easier. I see you like to put the blame on Ottawa when what I tell you is my experience with the units in that they don't want to move out of their armories and make all the arguments on saying why they want to stay there without considering other options. So you had a CO that supported moving to new infrastructure. That's great, too bad not everyone is as accommodating. Maybe you can tell me his name and what building you moved from? Which unit?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Actually. He wasn't CO at the time. He was working in Ottawa on the project, probably with DLI. The Major FA Tilston Armoury & Police Training Centre - Windsor. If you want his name, DM me. I'm not hostile. You said you're having trouble with: "The issue is that there is a lot of sentiment wrapped up with the old armouries. So even if they are unfit for purpose, the current occupants will do their best to fight to remain. You can build the best, modern armoury, but unless you get rid of the old ones, you're not going to get units to move. And getting rid of the old ones is a political decision. You should ask yourself why these old armouries are still around if they don't serve their purpose. It's because you get MPs, MPPs, local politicians, and other prominent businesspeople raising a stink whenever the possibility comes up."
It sounds like the pressing problem is the inability of the Office to bring mediation and negotiation skills to the table to bring all the actors on board, without feeling they are getting kicked in the teeth. How did we lose that? Do you think that could be easily rectified with the right training and people to think outside of the box? CO's not giving up their armoury? Remind them who they work for. DA holders are not the mortgage holders. Follow orders or get replaced. I don't even know why that is a concern. Again, I'm not hostile, but I am somewhat incredulous at the lack of motion, because there are no trained people to handle the human aspect of the deal. It is such a trivial item to stop progress that it is ridiculous, IMO.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

bgc_fan. I don't want to derail the Op Centre aspect of the thread, we have the capability here already with our new armoury, so I have no input there. If you wish to continue our discussion further, we can go to DM.

Cheers