JTF2 Operators leaving CF to join PMCs

[CH1]

From my perspective, I do not like the fact that the ppl over there have no "backup" plans or echelons.
As every body knows it can be bad enough, even with all the support mechanisms in place & functional.
I find it even scarier that Res For are going over. (not knocking them).  But actual Cbt experience counts big when the crap hits the fan.  Personally I've looked at it and concluded
(1) I'm too old
(2) I would want to hand pick my crew & wpns
(3) Have backup plans & resources
(4) Control ROE's & assignments

I'm too picky at this late stage of the game.  Managed to keep my tail in relatively same shape as at issue, without too much damage.

Cheers

 

[KevinB]

I disagree on the "good ex infantry man can do the job as well as a SF guy routine"

Shooting skills
First Aid
Comms
Driving / Vehicle Drills
Foot Drills.

1) A good Infanteer might have a basic fundemantal in shooting, unless he is putting a lot of round down range on his own AND taking courses from credible instructors - the basic US and Canadians weapons instruction shooting skills are sadly deficient.

2) First Aid - unless the soldier has the TCC course he has no experience with battlefield trauma - First aid support for the client is necessary - and that for wounded team mates.

3) Comms - the ability to shoot move and communicate when something bad goes down - not necessarily just electronic means - but clearly to you teammates

4)Vehicle skills -- This skill level is ZERO - high speed and ant-ambush skils are not taught to conventional force personnel (althoguh I believe they shoudl be)

5) Foot drills etc from walking with the principle to reacting to ambush/threats.  I can tell you it is a 180 degree from being an Infantryman - the client is #1 - closing with and destroying the enemy is not.


A GOOD Infanteer may have two of those skills sets at a good level - he needs all five.  Most SOF will have at least 4 of those skills Mastered.


That said there is a definite Tier in Private Military Contractors
VIP CP work
Convoy (non client) escort
Static Site security.

Working actually PSD work for a VIP will entail more $ for both the individual and the contract - and run armoured vehicles and have kit - plus hopefully a medical setup and US Hospital access - and a QRF.  I have a friend doing this- pay is excellent (not quite a 1k a day but damn near - all USD tax free)

Convoy - these people are cannon fodder - Sorry but its true they are guarding shit that is not important to the Army - and necessary for corporations to function - however a lot of these are pennie pinching sending troops off in soft skin vehicles - or worse hard vehicles they cannot shoot out of.

Static: Lowest group - but I have two buddies doing this in Iraq and they have it pretty good - not bad pay for low risks.


Pay for the top guy is around $950 USD a day but he is a TL

Pay for the low end is $450 USD a day.


PS Dont work for the Brits - Hart and Edinburg Risk are getting shit kicked these days - 60 guys in the last three days.

 

[Big Red]

Also writing from Iraq.

I don't believe there are any Canadian security companies in Iraq.   Canadian PSD operators are few and far between here.

Pay of $1000 per day? For each man making that there are hundreds making far less including 'Tier 1' operators. There are PSDs out there that pay Third Country Nationals 5000 per month.   Besides a select few British companies most pay less than BW or 3C.   I echo the comments above that UK outfits seem to have a higher percentage of professionals. I would rather work with a more organized group and live to spend the money.

"From my perspective, I do not like the fact that the ppl over there have no "backup" plans or echelons."

That is why you are being paid 5x what a soldier makes...there is some hazard involved.

"But actual Cbt experience counts big when the crap hits the fan. "

How many soldiers in the Canadian Forces have 'combat experience' that is relevant to the PSD environment?

You should not go to Iraq unless you have developed the skill sets KevinB mentioned past what the army gave you.   You do not need to be Tier 1 to do PSD however you do need training.

 

[wack-in-iraq]

a lot of valid points have been made, i think the one that i hear the most often is 'what good is all the money if you are dead'  well, this is a fact, i am not sure if anyone remembers the 4 guys from blackwater that were literally torn into pieces in fallujah some time ago, but they were making $3000 a day, while that is a lot of money, what good is it now. of course this is an extreme example. the PSD teams i work with most closely (Dyncorp, Global, and a few smaller names) operate in the $500 a day range.

there are a lot of different types of PSD work as well, of course blackwater is the most high profile, they have a huge contract with the US embassy here, and thus they are VERY well kitted out. they drive around in werewolves (RSA made APC) and have MH-6 helos as well, no one here has a bigger rep than these guys. then you get down to people doing more static work, Global runs the BIAP area, and they do an excellent job. then you get the rag tag teams mixed with Ex-Pats and a bunch of iraqis driving around in BMWs with AKs, these are the guys who take a lot of cassualties, for a number of obvious reasons.

the best piece of advice i can give, that has already been given is to know what you are getting into coming to a place like iraq. while it is an exciting place, it is a crazy one as well, and life here can be very unpleasant.

 

[Big Red]

"no one here has a bigger rep than these guys. "....as having more ex-pat KIA than any other company in theatre.

 

[Michael Shannon]

Of course to be part of a PSD team you need specific training but whether you come from SOF or the infantry or are a sapper it doesn't matter if you're a good quality soldier. For instance a former armoured trooper who lived for GPMGs could be a real boon to a team as well gunner in a SUV. Being a PSD team member is not rocket science and most SOF skills are irrelevant: scuba, demolitions, heavy weapons, FAC, parachuting etc. and it is very wrong to assume that most SOF personnel have done PSD training. In any event no professional PSC deploys anyone on a team without a entry course to brush up skills and ingrain SOPs.

  Before PSD training one should be good with small arms, reasonably fit, comfortable doing section tactics, and a good driver. Each team should have a para medic type but you shouldn't exaggerate what you expect him to be able to do. The range of trauma where a para medic will make the difference in saving a life is quite narrow. Good teams will also train in theatre whenever possible. They will adapt their drills to changing enemy TTPs. Virtually every drill I was ever taught on PSD training pre Iraq is different here. It's your ability to adjust to the situation that is important.

    Skill sets are also perishable. Who's a better shot; a serving infantryman who shoots IDPA a lot or a SAS guy whose been out of the service for 6 years and hasn't touched a gun? I don't know. But I do know, from experience, it's very dangerous to assume the training level of ex SOF men.

    Being a solid soldier and a quick learner are more important than former beret colour. Getting hired is another thing and beret colour very much is part of it in many firms.

 

[KevinB]

     Being a solid soldier and a quick learner are more important than former beret colour

VERY VERY true.

I will defer to bigred as he is one of three Canadians I personally know who is over there.

 

[wack-in-iraq]

I will defer to bigred as he is one of three Canadians I personally know who is over there.

there arent many canadians over here at all, ive been here 4 months and have met 4

 

[Slim]

Being a solid soldier and a quick learner are more important than former beret colour. Getting hired is another thing and beret colour very much is part of it in many firms.

Mike Shannon

That was a great post. Thanks very much. I know from experience that the colour of ones beret (and background) do very much matter as I had tried to get over there a number of times.

Despite my training in the CF (armoured Recce/Int Branch) and A good long solid Cp course I was not successful in getting into a PMC.

Cheers

Slim

 

[jmacleod]

For Former Airborne, Canadian Army, two items of interest I would think. My neighbour in Moncton NB
served in the 1st Special Service Force, was in all the battles in Italy, and knew Sergeant Tommy Prince
whom he described as one of the bravest soldiers in the Force, decorated with the MM, Silver and
Bronze Stars, and possibly the US DSC - most awards to 1SSF were US medals. Ross rates the late
Tommy Prince very highly, "a real professional soldier". He also advised that the Colors with all Battle
Honors are going to be turned over to JTF2 - he noted that normally they would have gone to the
US Special Forces training facility (is it at Fort Benning GA?) but the Canadian survivors wanted the
colors and other honors from the famous Unit in Canada. 1SSF has a veterans' organization and publishes
a monthly newsletter - on a number of occasions, they have published accolades from US Airborne
personnel familier with the high quality of the Canadian Airborne Regiment in Somalia. MacLeod

 

[KevinB]

  :  And that had what to do with the topic?

 

[jmacleod]

I posted my comments because the high regard the surviving members of 1SSF have for JTF2,which received a Presidential Unit Citation from President Bush in 2004. Unfortunately elite units do not
last too lomg in the Canadian military - history is not on their side, despite the high quality of the
Unit. As far as a career in PMC is concerned, a well known US based security outfit was shooting
at the US Marine Corps the other day in Iraq - their tenure is now somewhat limited, and many
members of the US Senate are not supportive of the concept of civilian contractors in front-line
security operations, regardless of what you or I might think. MacLeod

 

[meni0n]

It is not yet clear if it was them who shot at the marines. It's a known fact the insurgents now use SUVs to ride around and shoot at people pretending to be contractors.

 

[Big Red]

If you don't know what you are talking about ie. Iraq incidents and intelligence, then don't bother posting about it. Just because you read it on another website does not make it fact.

 

[Big Red]

If the US government wants to reconstruct Iraq they have no option but to use PMCs. The US military certainly isn't going to protect private individuals doing business in hostile areas with the exception of top officials.

 

[jmacleod]

Despite what you have posted, the US Government has a number of options focused on Iraq,
which are being debated in the US Congress at this moment. A Report in the 9 June 2005 issue
of Military.com filed by Associated Press, Iraq, reported that 16 Private Security Contractors, and
three Iragi's were detained and questioned after having opened fire with automatic weapons on a
US Marine detachment. The Contractors later left Iraq - this is not an opinion, simply a report of an
actual, factual incident. The use of private security companies in Iraq has been the subject of debate
for some time - but agreed, what are the options?  - the security contractor program appears to be
the most sensible and logical course, with additional US and allied troops for Iraq not acceptable to
the politicians at the moment. MacLeod

 

[Michael Shannon]

The alternatives to PSCs are limited and not mutually exclusive.

1. Have the US military protect the reconstruction groups. This is basically the PRT idea in Afghanistan but the scale would be far greater.
2. Have reconstruction money given directly to the Iraqi authorities and have far fewer expat civilians on the ground. Basically write the money off in the hope it does some good and save the money currently spent on security.
3. Forbid foreigners from possessing weapons or hiring armed security people. This will clean out most westerners.
4. Forbid foreigners from employing expat armed security. This will clean out anyone but those really comfortable in the Middle East.

          I believe that none of the above will be adopted. The Iraqi government wants to reduce the number of PSCs and get the remainder under better control and more accountable and a number of large firms are being cut back because of "accounting & legal problems".

 

[wack-in-iraq]

PSCs are a fact of life now, they are here to stay (at least for a while) . the US government has already admitted the importance of these detachments, and has said that if it wasnt for the contractors over here the US army would need at least another division to fill the gaps.

 

[CH1]

The 1 thing that is being overlooked through out this little escapade is a single fact.  The allies do not have control over the "opposition PSC's" (sorry, had to use that line). The for hire guns on the other side are striking at will with relative impunity.  May be the freindly PSC's will in time help to stabilise the situation. 

The Allies have to regain control of the country, which is a daunting task as they are spread thin.  If they don't regain control, this could be another 10,000 day war.  Talking to a few friends of mine that are back from Iraq, this seems to be a general consensus.  They say they have lost site of the objective & are now involved in a war that closely resembles Nam.

Hope that sentiment isn't true!

Cheers

 

[DFW2T]

The 1 thing that is being overlooked through out this little escapade is a single fact.   The allies do not have control over the "opposition PSC's" (sorry, had to use that line). The for hire guns on the other side are striking at will with relative impunity.   May be the freindly PSC's will in time help to stabilise the situation.  

The Allies have to regain control of the country, which is a daunting task as they are spread thin.   If they don't regain control, this could be another 10,000 day war.   Talking to a few friends of mine that are back from Iraq, this seems to be a general consensus.   They say they have lost site of the objective & are now involved in a war that closely resembles Nam.

Hope that sentiment isn't true!

Cheers

  Your friends know what they are talking about.  It's so true.  That being said...as a Security manager here in Iraq, I would be hesitant to hire somebody that isn't here for the money..................opposed to hiring someone who wants to make Iraq a better place for all... blah blah blah.  Unlike the military,  security contrators have one objective........................ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THE PRINCIPLE ...full stop.  Someone who wants to make a change should join the peace corps.
(good luck you can't change a thing here).

The question of "how long will th US military be in Iraq" is in great debate but there is no doubt that the civi security sector will be here for a long, long time.

As one one who served in the CDN forces and the civi sec sector I can tell you it's very liberating (WRT ROES ect.)  being a contrator "OUR" ROEs are clearly simple.

I think I got off topic but want I wanted to say (in reference to your comment that your chums stated) was that they have lost sight of the objective...as a civi sec contrator your objective is to:

GET THE PRINCIPLE BACK AND FORTH...unscathed.

BY ALL MEANS;  ENSURE YOU YOU NEVER NEED TO DRAW YOU WEAPON (if you do you have failed your mission)

IF YOU DO DRAW YOUR WEAPON....BE SURE YOU USE IT FIRST... then SHOOT N' SCOOT

MAKE LOTS OF MONEY!

GO HOME TO YOUR FAMILY!!!!

Hope this wasn't too OFF TOPIC

Stay Safe
DFW2T