Legal Status of ASP Batons

[Bruce Monkhouse]

If that was the case your butter knife would be prohibited also, I think you will find that the issue is that is as no other practical purpose.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I still strongly suspect that it's a prohibited weapon due to the sheer amount of force it can exert. Anyone familiar with the Use of Force Spectrum knows that an ASP can technically be used as a lethal force option in certain circumstances. I was told by both a local police Use of Force instructor and an Inspector that the ASP can easily kill someone if it strikes certain areas and inflicts incredible amounts of damage and that they're really a LOT more dangerous than they look. I figured if civvies could easily obtain them, you'd see more civilians with them in some capacity and definitely more criminals using them.

So can a 2x4, a ball peen hammer, and a sledge hammer handle.  Guess I better put Peavey Mart on warning as a supplier of deadly weapons.  I have a slingshot and a pile of lead shrapnel balls, I could very likely kill you with it if I hit you in the right spot too.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and

Anyone familiar with the Use of Force Spectrum knows that an ASP can technically be used as a lethal force option in certain circumstances. 

I am very familiar with that spectrum and that is 100% false, it is a "less than lethal" option only.
Which "anyone" should know does NOT mean that it won't kill................

 

[BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny]

...and
I am very familiar with that spectrum and that is 100% false, it is a "less than lethal" option only.
Which "anyone" should know does NOT mean that it won't kill................

I was given the example of it being a lethal force option in a situation such as the suspect is on top of someone on the ground and is going to stab them (or something similarly potentially lethal) and the officer cannot use his sidearm or deploy a Taser because it may hit the victim, and as such, has to bean the suspect on the head with an ASP.

I'm dead serious in this example given. I think it'd make a lot more sense just to nail the suspect in the body, but that was the example given. I recall it being a during a Criminology class where I had managed to bring in some guest speakers from the local police service and someone asked a bunch of questions about use of force (naturally in a way implying that all force is excessive force....).

I should have rephrased my original post to specifically note that on the Spectrum an ASP is a less-than-lethal force option.

So can a 2x4, a ball peen hammer, and a sledge hammer handle.  Guess I better put Peavey Mart on warning as a supplier of deadly weapons.  I have a slingshot and a pile of lead shrapnel balls, I could very likely kill you with it if I hit you in the right spot too.

I really dropped the ball with my "potentially inflicting lethal damage" post . Heck, a sock full of rolled pennies can be lethal. I guess that means we should outlaw pennies and socks.

Sorry for any frustration that I may have caused you guys and thank you for sorting me out with my question. I think I need to think more when I make some of these posts !

 

[BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny]

OK, for the sake of sorting out what I think I know about the Spectrum, in what circumstances does the ASP become the highest level of less-than-lethal force? Has the Taser pretty much ousted it as the maximum level of less-than-lethal force?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I was given the example of it being a lethal force option in a situation such as the suspect is on top of someone on the ground and is going to stab them (or something similarly potentially lethal) and the officer cannot use his sidearm or deploy a Taser because it may hit the victim, and as such, has to bean the suspect on the head with an ASP.

I'm dead serious in this example given. I think it'd make a lot more sense just to nail the suspect in the body, but that was the example given. I recall it being a during a Criminology class where I had managed to bring in some guest speakers from the local police service and someone asked a bunch of questions about use of force (naturally in a way implying that all force is excessive force....).

The head would never be targeted, which is not to say the head might end up being hit, but it would never be the initial target as the 40/40/10/10 rule would go right out the window.
[there's some research for you]

 

[OldSolduer]

For anyone who is PROPERLY trained in the use of the ASP or MANADNOCK Telescopic baton series of weapons, the body is broken up into three different colour groups;
-Green: these are areas that are "safe to strike" in that they are non-lethal areas if hit with the weapon. These include arms and legs, excluding the joints and ankles/feet/head/neck areas.
Orange: these are areas of possible permanent injury. They include all joints in the body, such as knees and elbows.
Red areas: these are potentially lethal areas if struck and include the face, head, neck etc.

Slim

I took my training in Manitoba, as a Correctional Officer (which I still am despite the Class B). We were taught similarly. Our target was the the thigh. Whack a bad guy on the thigh and he'll drop, or at least that's the theory.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Well here we target the joints......remember the bearing of "unintended consequences" is the direct result of an offender's actions or lack thereof.

I don't see how the thigh in any way stops a weapon delivery system, very puzzling to me.

 

[Pusser]

I don't see how the thigh in any way stops a weapon delivery system, very puzzling to me.

]

Having done some ASP baton training, I would think that if someone were to whack you on the thigh, it's going to make you stop and think - or at least spill your coffee.

 

[OldSolduer]

]

Having done some ASP baton training, I would think that if someone were to whack you on the thigh, it's going to make you stop and think - or at least spill your coffee.

Strike the thigh hard enough and an ordinary person will drop...fast. Think of how much a knee to the thigh hurts, then imagine getting hit with a steel rod being swung hard and quick by someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Of that I have no doubt but I have never seen or heard of the thigh as a target, [and during the last 15 years our "system" has changed a few times] my GUESS would be that all it would take is some rotation and you have just nailed someone in the stones,......very hard to defend in court.

 

[Bass ackwards]

At the risk of straying from my rather narrow lanes, I do recall reading (I think it was in the book Blackhawk Down by Mark Bowden) about the technique of delivering a good hard kick to the thigh -which was supposed to render a person unconscious due to the shock to the femoral artery.
Maybe one of our medical types could expand on the feasibility of that.

I've personally never tried it -or had it tried on me.
YMMV.

 

[Container]

Batons are legal for anyone to buy in Canada. You just aren't allowed to strut around with one concealed. THere are several states where they are illegal to possess.

If someone is on the ground about to be stabbed by someone on top of them you should be responding with a higher level of force than a maybe/might be baton strike to the head. Further more the taser doesnt go through the offender and strike the victim so there is no concern that you'll hit the victim. The baton isnt a lethal force option- sure you can kill somebody with it but thats doesnt make it a good choice.

The taser has not replaced the baton just like OC spray didnt. Its another tool that depending on the situation will be used. I hit a guy in his upper thigh once with my baton and his skin burst open and fell over immediately- it appeared to work just fine. Ive also got a guyin the ribs and in the arms. All reasonably effective. But typically its an upper body thing- why would you lean over  like that and put yourself off balance for that?

At any rate- should you need to know these things you'll be taught them.

 

[ballz]

I'm not a medical professional... but I am a kickboxer.

I have seen (and executed) a good kick (with the shin) just above the knee drop a few people, and even stop opponents altogether (TKO via leg kicks is not that uncommon). I have also been kicked in the same manner a few times and was unable to walk properly for two days. In muay thai, the thigh is a major target for a reason. It feels like Barry Bonds used a baseball bat to give you a charlie horse from your worst nightmares.

That said, I googled that femoral artery, and its (they?) pretty deep inside your thigh next to your femur. I can't see a leg kick doing much to affect it. Also, if it were possible to render someone unconscious with a leg kick, I'd be Buakaw Por Pramuk would have done it already.

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm not a medical professional... but I am a kickboxer.

I have seen (and executed) a good kick (with the shin) just above the knee drop a few people, and even stop opponents altogether (TKO via leg kicks is not that uncommon). I have also been kicked in the same manner a few times and was unable to walk properly for two days. In muay thai, the thigh is a major target for a reason. It feels like Barry Bonds used a baseball bat to give you a charlie horse from your worst nightmares.

That said, I googled that femoral artery, and its (they?) pretty deep inside your thigh next to your femur. I can't see a leg kick doing much to affect it. Also, if it were possible to render someone unconscious with a leg kick, I'd be Buakaw Por Pramuk would have done it already.

Good analogy, I took kickboxing for a bit and I hated having to hold the pads so 6'4", 240 pound Kevin could practice thigh kicks.  If one is hit on the outer thigh, the reasoing is that the central nervous system is overwhelmed with the sheer pain and the subject will drop.
I'm not sure what the effect is on a person who's high on angel dust or crystal meth. Anyone know?

 

[Container]

Yeah it doesnt work. Thats where 8 cops in a pig pile works....or in the places im from a prolonged fight with 2 cops until the high guy collapses from exhaustion.

I had an interesting call where I was driving the car behind an ambulance with the bad guy in it to the hospital. My partner told me that the guy was losing it and got free in the back. Broke his handcuffs etc. The whole ambulance started shifting and we pulled into the parking lot when two emts burst out of the bus followed by my partner and the the bad guy. 6 cops repeatedly hitting him with batons, and other things, did nothing we just kept at him until we had him on his back and the 6 of us, and two emts, were on top of him. Eventually he kinda gave up for a minute and cuffed him to the stretcher, and then put restraints on the elbows, ankles and knees to immobilize him.

He screamed and spat all night. But to answer your question about thigh strikes- nothing worked. He was a good candidate to die right there on the bottom of that pig pile but lucky for us we were in the hospital ambulance bay.

Oh drugs. So much fun!

 

[mariomike]

6 cops repeatedly hitting him with batons, and other things, did nothing we just kept at him until we had him on his back and the 6 of us, and two emts, were on top of him. Eventually he kinda gave up for a minute and cuffed him to the stretcher, and then put restraints on the elbows, ankles and knees to immobilize him.

I see you transported him on his back. That's how they do it now. We are no longer permited to transport patients in a prone position with their hands tied behind their back, as per the Coroner's Office.

 

[DirtyDog]

I've seen real ASPs at several stores... seems easy enough to buy.

ASP and Baton training is part of the CQCI course.

 

[Container]

I see you transported him on his back. That's how they do it now. We are no longer permited to transport patients in a prone position with their hands tied behind their back, as per the Coroner's Office.

Ive never seen it done prone. Im surprised it was ever done given what we know about positional asphyxiation.

 

[mariomike]

Ive never seen it done prone. Im surprised it was ever done given what we know about positional asphyxiation.

We didn't know about positional asphyxiation back then. The primary concern was that they not open the doors, and play in traffic. Patients are no longer restrained to a stretcher in a prone position. "The patient should be restrained in a sitting position whenever possible." I think that became the S.O.P. around 1995.