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Legal Status of ASP Batons

your concealed weapon section of the criminal code is CC sec 90(1)

and weapon is defined in CC sec 2 "Weapon is defined as ANY thing used , designed to be used or intended for use

a) in causing death or injury to any person,or
b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person

*Modified to remove "attitude"*
 
Aaron White said:
You strike places where muscles tie in....like joints etc.

That comment.

 I have taken a few intro's to baton usage and other Less than Lethal trg and seen the control measures used by EPS and CPS (specifically Alberta, and both of them use the Blue/Red terminology) and other departments outside of Ab.  I don't claim to be an expert - but anyone who would comment on striking a suspect on a joint as opposed to a meatier area I would have to wonder about...

I agree with your point on the use and carry however.

I would agree to modify my statement *edit: and did...
 
Aw, and I thought I was going to need to lock this sucker for a second.
See folks, good things do happen.
 
KevinB said:
That comment.

 I have taken a few intro's to baton usage and other Less than Lethal trg and seen the control measures used by EPS and CPS (specifically Alberta, and both of them use the Blue/Red terminology) and other departments outside of Ab.  I don't claim to be an expert - but anyone who would comment on striking a suspect on a joint as opposed to a meatier area I would have to wonder about...

I agree with your point on the use and carry however.

I would agree to modify my statement to idiotic comment rather than paint you wholehog as an idiot. ;D

Good enough. Yes "meaty" is good. Hmm....okay when going at upper body weapons(the arms) you dont strike. You use a sweeping motion followed by the "get back stop resisting"  ;D. The sweeping motion for the arms can go- forearm(meaty), elbow(inside arm), and bicep(meaty again). However more often than not you sweep into the middle(centre) which happens to be the elbow. Not to break it. But because you have a greater chance of connecting. But its a sweep not a strike. If you've taken a pressure points course you know that all the tie ins are pressure points. (there are others- thats not meant to be exhaustive) In hindsight I should have been more specific. But when using a baton for pressure points you most certainly do strike the tie in's. Not with the same gusto as the lower strikes.

On the lower limbs where you do strike- you only strike the meat. You dont strike the joint. Large muscle group. Same muscle you hit when doing knee stuns.

really? Edmonton and Calgary are using a red and blue model? Hmm....I shall look into that......
 
When I got out in 97 to go back to school I was a comissionaire (stop laughing you guys) at a CPS district I had nothign better to do than read through their Use of Force guidlines.   When I got back in after 9/11 I kept up with a few buddies there and compared trg notes on some stuff.   I have a few buddies (ex Pats) in EPS and they confirmed the APS tactics (we got some odd instruction prior to G8 from the Base MP's on Batons and Pressure Point control measures.  Read RTFO and I went back to them and VPD ERT guys I had done some stuff with prior - they confirmed the MP's (who were not Less Lethal Instructors nor CCO Instrcutors) where the ones who where RTFO


I took the comment you originaly made to be a Tonya Harding (SP?) issue and apparently so did excoelis.

Cheers
Kevin

 
As has been discussed above we have been warned to stay away from areas such as the spine and skull duto possible legal ramifications.
 
For anyone who is PROPERLY trained in the use of the ASP or MANADNOCK Telescopic baton series of weapons, the body is broken up into three different colour groups;
-Green: these are areas that are "safe to strike" in that they are non-lethal areas if hit with the weapon. These include arms and legs, excluding the joints and ankles/feet/head/neck areas.
Orange: these are areas of possible permanent injury. They include all joints in the body, such as knees and elbows.
Red areas: these are potentially lethal areas if struck and include the face, head, neck etc.

There are several companies that provide the proper training in the use of the ASP and its cousins. They will also go to court to defend your method of training should it come to that.

Slim
 
Again with the color zones thing. I've never seen that any where- Slim who did you do your course through. My systems only had black for lethal force. I can see the benefit of dividing up the body but to this point I've never taken a course where they have done so.

EPS and CPS according to KevinB use Red and blue- my courses used black......where did you do your training Slim?
 
I've looked in on this thread a few times, don't know much about ASP's colour zones etc. but I can tell you for sure that the remarks about using the baton without lawful authority are dead on. That means following the use of force continuim for police and law enforcement related agencies, or face the consequences. As for a civilian in self defence, the use of force to defend property is frowned upon by the justice system and almost always results in civil liability, no matter the justification or jurisdiction.

As far as using the baton to defend your "person", or to defend another, there must be an air of reality to that defence. In other words, you must run away if you can, and if unable to do so you must use only enough force to protect yourself from continuing harm, but go no further than that.

The definition of a weapon is a subjective test, there must be an demonstrated intention to use the object as a "weapon" for the purposes of the Criminal Code. What makes the baton different than a firearm is the fact a firearm is always a weapon for the purposes of the criminal code, whether there is an intention to use it or not.

Unless the ASP baton is on the list of prohibited or restricted weapons or devices, mere possession of the ASP does not constitute a contravening act. What makes this weapon interesting is that it is a purpose built weapon, coupled with it's spring loaded, gravity or centrifugal characteristics. The weapon could easily be argued to fit in the category of prohibited weapon by anology to knives of the "switch blade" variety. A successful argument on that front could well lead to the curtailment of non-authorized possession of the weapon.

Even more important is the fact that carrying the ASP un-concealled in public without lawful excuse is a summary conviction offence, just like any other "weapon."    And, the restriction is not confined to carriage on the person .. if it is in your car, that is enough to satsfy the offence. Again, given the purpose of this device, it would be hard to argue lack of subjective intent. The code makes reference to "public meetings or on the way to attend public meetings" for this offence, however that has been broadened by the courts to mean virtually anywhere but private real property [a "dwelling"] or immediately on the way to private property.

It seems to me the issue will turn on "lawful excuse", which means "authorized by law" which, at a minimum, suggests peace officer or military status directed by Order in Council or by appointment[*edit: appointment or business licence].

Hope this does not muddle things.  
Cheers.   :)
 
If you try to cayy an ASP concealed the cops will almost certainly take a run at you for "carry of a concealed weapon!"

One of those things where you have to prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that you are not planning to hurt someone with it.

Slim
 
Slim said:
If you try to cayy an ASP concealed the cops will almost certainly take a run at you for "carry of a concealed weapon!"

One of those things where you have to prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that you are not planning to hurt someone with it.

Slim

The only problem with that- it has no other purpose. Unlike a knife which you can say "its for cutting seatbelts" in case of an accident, or its for opening letters- a baton has no other useful function beyond "pain compliance".....
 
Slim said:
One of those things where you have to prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that you are not planning to hurt someone with it.

The subjective intention in that particular offence is concealment ... there must be "carriage" and there must be an intent at "concealment." The intention of harm does not come into play unless the weapon is not concealed
 
Quote,
Green: these are areas that are "safe to strike" in that they are non-lethal areas if hit with the weapon. These include arms and legs, excluding the joints and ankles/feet/head/neck areas.

From the book folks,
ASP TARGETS 6.07.02
There are three principal ASP targets on the body. All techniques are designed to deliver one or more strikes to the following:
1]  ELBOW[ centre mass of arm]
2] KNEE[ centre mass of the leg
3] ABDOMEN[ centre mass of the torso]

These three areas were selected for their physiological vunerability combined with their less lethal potential as a baton target.
Strikes to the knees and elbows effectivetly disable an assailents "delivery system"
Strikes to the abdomen generate fluid shock waves.
In addition, strikes to those areas create sensory "overload" in the assailents brain.
 
Well it seems we know of at least 4 different ASP type training systems now  ;D

 
I was talking to a guy taking a police foundations course the other day and he said that civilians can purchase ASP batons, but they just can't carry them. He even said that the local gun store sells them. This guy is a bit of a bonehead, so I took what he said with a grain of salt. I just don't see a weapon that can be easily concealed being legal for civilians, let alone the amount of damage an ASP can do.

Is there any truth to what he said? I always thought that ASPs were prohibited weapons and were illegal for civilians to possess.
 
From the Canadian Legal Information Institute:
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/sor-98-462/latest/sor-98-462.html

Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 7

13. The device commonly known as a “Kiyoga Baton” or “Steel Cobra” and any similar device consisting of a manually triggered telescoping spring-loaded steel whip terminated in a heavy calibre striking tip.

 
At the American PX in Camp Butmir (Sarajevo, BiH), ASP Batons were readily available.  Thinking about buying one, I asked one of the Canadian MPs (a WO) what its status was in Canada and he was absolutely clear that it was a PROHIBITED weapon. 
 
BadEnoughDude said:
I was talking to a guy taking a police foundations course the other day and he said that civilians can purchase ASP batons, but they just can't carry them. He even said that the local gun store sells them. This guy is a bit of a bonehead, so I took what he said with a grain of salt. I just don't see a weapon that can be easily concealed being legal for civilians, let alone the amount of damage an ASP can do.

Is there any truth to what he said? I always thought that ASPs were prohibited weapons and were illegal for civilians to possess.

as previously stated, you can buy "Collapsible" ASP style batons at many gun and army surplus stores... Buying an actual ASP or Monadnock brand baton is much trickier as most stores that sell them here in the GTA such as R. Nicholls or MD Charlton will not sell one to you unless you are a Law Enforcement officer.

When I was younger dumb-ass I bought one of the knock-off batons from a surplus store... I have compared them to the ASP's my friends carry at work, and I can tell you that the knock-offs are utter crap... save your money

As to the legality issue, you can buy them... however you will walk into a GIANT world of Legal hurt if you try to carry one as a private citizen.

“Kiyoga Baton” or “Steel Cobra” are a different style of Baton then the Collapsible ASP style. If I recall correctly they are the type that are Spring Loaded and do not require and kind of centrifugal force to extend. 

I will talk to my Cop and Lawyer friends and get back....
 
I still strongly suspect that it's a prohibited weapon due to the sheer amount of force it can exert. Anyone familiar with the Use of Force Spectrum knows that an ASP can technically be used as a lethal force option in certain circumstances. I was told by both a local police Use of Force instructor and an Inspector that the ASP can easily kill someone if it strikes certain areas and inflicts incredible amounts of damage and that they're really a LOT more dangerous than they look. I figured if civvies could easily obtain them, you'd see more civilians with them in some capacity and definitely more criminals using them.
 
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