Leo 2A6M CAN - are they in service?

[Colin Parkinson]

I think basing numbers on German readiness is probably a flawed premise. Firstly we have no idea what the standard of “ready” is for a German tank, and secondly we don’t know what effect their budget has really had in part and maintenance.


I like the idea of Reservist crews; I’m a big fan of the British system of having regiments of “crew replacements” who can train on existing systems.

One thing Germany has is a tank building/repair industry, so if the will and money align, they can quickly bring the majority of their fleet up to operational in short order. Everyone but the US and South Korea are in line for a limited supply of parts and repair facilities.

 

[FJAG]

Whenever I'm particulalry far into dreaming I think of getting a couple of hundred overstocked M1s out of storage in the US and giving them to GD in London to convert into A3s with the A2SepV4 package and a diesel engine. It's only a nine hour round trip parts run to Lima.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Whenever I'm particulalry far into dreaming I think of getting a couple of hundred overstocked M1s out of storage in the US and giving them to GD in London to convert into A3s with the A2SepV4 package and a diesel engine. It's only a nine hour round trip parts run to Lima.

 

[FJAG]

My guess is if we promised to give our Leos to Ukraine and agreed to pay for the upgrades on the M1s work we'd probably get the tanks for free from Uncle Sam. For around $1-2 million per tank we'd probably start saving on annual maintenance immediately and have our own full-scope workshop.

Like I said; whenever I spin off to dreamland.

 

[markppcli]

My guess is if we promised to give our Leos to Ukraine and agreed to pay for the upgrades on the M1s work we'd probably get the tanks for free from Uncle Sam. For around $1-2 million per tank we'd probably start saving on annual maintenance immediately and have our own full-scope workshop.

Like I said; whenever I spin off to dreamland.

There was a tweet I saw this weekend suggesting that the German defence industry was deeply concerned the US would back fill donated Leopards and cut them out of European defence.

 

[FJAG]

There was a tweet I saw this weekend suggesting that the German defence industry was deeply concerned the US would back fill donated Leopards and cut them out of European defence.

Between the M1 and the K2 I see the Leo2 club starting to shrink to 3rd world countries.

I actually like what I see in the glossy brochures for the Panther KF51 (or as I call it the PzKpfw V v2.0 - It's namesake was, IMHO, a far superior tank to its heavier and more illustrious Tiger PzKpfw VI counterpart).

Using the relatively dependable Leo2 chassis and a new turret with new concepts makes it a good future system. OTOH the M1 and K2 series are here now. It may be hard for Rheinmetall to carve out a niche unless they can work out a really good upgrade path for old Leo2A4s to KF51s.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There was a tweet I saw this weekend suggesting that the German defence industry was deeply concerned the US would back fill donated Leopards and cut them out of European defence.

Good.

The Euro-Trash need a little 'friendly' competition to wake them out of their self-satisfied slumber if, you know, the 'unfriendly' Russian invasion on their doorstep hasn't already done that.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Good.

The Euro-Trash need a little 'friendly' competition to wake them out of their self-satisfied slumber if, you know, the 'unfriendly' Russian invasion on their doorstep hasn't already done that.

It certainly woke the Swedes and the Finns…

 

[Kirkhill]

Between the M1 and the K2 I see the Leo2 club starting to shrink to 3rd world countries.

I actually like what I see in the glossy brochures for the Panther KF51 (or as I call it the PzKpfw V v2.0 - It's namesake was, IMHO, a far superior tank to its heavier and more illustrious Tiger PzKpfw VI counterpart).

Using the relatively dependable Leo2 chassis and a new turret with new concepts makes it a good future system. OTOH the M1 and K2 series are here now. It may be hard for Rheinmetall to carve out a niche unless they can work out a really good upgrade path for old Leo2A4s to KF51s.

Are the US and Germany building any "new" hulls? Or are they continually older hulls with newer add-ons? The K2 actually is a "new" tank. The German fleet seems to be largely reworked 2A4 hulls, some of which started life as 2A0s, 2A1s, 2A2s and 2A3s, and have been modified two or three times already. Or are we clinging to grand-dad's axe handle and an assortment of VINs to keep the accountants in government and at the CFE happy?

Technically the most interesting development I see is retaining a 4 person crew but turning one of them into a "spotter" of some sort, presumably to man a UAV and handle data fusion. It is as if, starting with the old 5 man Sherman crew the loader has finally been ditched in favour of the wireless operator / hull machine gunner.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There was a tweet I saw this weekend suggesting that the German defence industry was deeply concerned the US would back fill donated Leopards and cut them out of European defence.

I think Germany just piddled into their own cornflakes. No serious country is going to consider their equipment again. SK not does not care how you use their equipment, but will bend over backwards to help you get it or build it. My guess is sales of the A7 are going to plummet and this is also going to affect their sub sales as well. Guess what SK is also in the sub business as well.......

 

[FJAG]

I think Germany just piddled into their own cornflakes. No serious country is going to consider their equipment again. SK not does not care how you use their equipment, but will bend over backwards to help you get it or build it. My guess is sales of the A7 are going to plummet and this is also going to affect their sub sales as well. Guess what SK is also in the sub business as well.......

One thing to remember here is that this relates to the transfer of the tanks to a country that is not a NATO member or otherwise part of a defence arrangement that includes Germany. I do not know the specific contractual agreements with Germany but if the M777 terms we have with the US is concerned we can certainly use the guns in defence of ourselves, in any NATO action or any other bilateral defence agreement we have with the US. That's pretty broad.

I expect Germany is similarly broad. When we bought the Leos in the first place, most came from the Dutch and Germany would have had to okay those sales. It wasn't a problem in that their use was to be as part of a NATO operation in Afghanistan.

 

[dapaterson]

We borrowed 20 from GER for AFG, bought 100 from NLD, upgraded 20 to GER standard to replace the 20 we borrowed... It was, in technical terms, a bit of a shit show.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think the dithering and indecision on this is going to impact future sales, particularly with SK, coming into the market strong and with more liberal polices.

 

[FJAG]

We borrowed 20 from GER for AFG, bought 100 from NLD, upgraded 20 to GER standard to replace the 20 we borrowed... It was, in technical terms, a bit of a shit show.

I actually thought it was a neat bit of logistics to get some modern gear into the hands of the troops. Besides we spared ourselves from getting MGS in the inventory. That was a bullet well dodged ... turning the LdSH into a TOW/ADATS/MGS. infantry, arty/armour mishmash.

 

[MJP]

I actually thought it was a neat bit of logistics to get some modern gear into the hands of the troops. Besides we spared ourselves from getting MGS in the inventory. That was a bullet well dodged ... turning the LdSH into a TOW/ADATS/MGS. infantry, arty/armour mishmash.

Agreed and @TangoTwoBravo said it as well that while a bit awkward it ensured we stayed in the tank game. The actual logistics/maint plan is/was shite but we are hopfully turning that corner in the near future. That or we give them to Ukraine and start anew

 

[Maxman1]

Whenever I'm particulalry far into dreaming I think of getting a couple of hundred overstocked M1s out of storage in the US and giving them to GD in London to convert into A3s with the A2SepV4 package and a diesel engine. It's only a nine hour round trip parts run to Lima.

And throw in building the Griffin II in London.

 

[KevinB]

One thing Germany has is a tank building/repair industry, so if the will and money align, they can quickly bring the majority of their fleet up to operational in short order. Everyone but the US and South Korea are in line for a limited supply of parts and repair facilities.

There are M1 facilities in Poland for complete refurbishment. In fact there are more Abrams facilities in Europe than ones for the Leo2…

 

[ueo]

There are M1 facilities in Poland for complete refurbishment. In fact there are more Abrams facilities in Europe than ones for the Leo2…

I have a problem with this statement having visited the US facility. Your source(s) please.

 

[GR66]

Personally I'd give Ukraine our 20 x 2A6Ms and 20 x 2A4Ms and keep our 42 x 2A4 training tanks while we determine what to replace our fleet with.

I wish there were actual production plans for the Abrams X. If we're going to upgrade we might as well get the latest technology since we know we'll hold on to them for decades. Abrams X is quite a bit lighter than the M1A2 SEP3, has a hybrid electric diesel engine and active protection system.

There's lots of negative press about German tanks at the moment, but realistically how likely is it that Canada will be looking at donating our tanks (of any origin) to another non-NATO country again? So our likely options for new tanks are M1A2 (for commonality with the US Army), Leopard 2A7 (for familiarity and commonality with many NATO nations) or the K2 Black Panther as an unlikely outlier (probably only would be considered if the industrial benefits/technology transfers offered by South Korea were too good to refuse).

Proposed tanks like the Abrams X, KF51 Panther or the ever shifting European future tank programs aren't really a good fit for Canada as we don't want to end up with another orphan fleet.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Now is the likely best opportunity for Canada to switch to a North American produced tank with a North American parts chain and divest itself of German equipment. An initial training group of 30 or so M1A2s (A3s?) could likely be at Gagetown and/or Wainwright within a couple months to start the training. As soon as those negotiations are complete (or sooner) send ALL the Leos to Poland for maintenance and then on to Ukraine.