Leopard C1 Questions

[Tango24B]

I am looking for some information on the old Leopard C1s.

Believe it or not there is actually a book in the works on the Canadian Leopard C1 in Germany for all you old Black Hatters to drool over and I am currently trying to gather some background technical information.

1. Did the Leopard C1 first enter service in Canada or in Germany? Did crews in Germany transition directly on to the C1 or was there lag time in between the rent-a-tank Leopard 1A2s leaving and the C1s arriving in Germany? There is an old DND article that indicates that the C1s arrived in Canada in August 1978 and then in Germany in November 1978. Other sources state the C1s arrived in Germany during the summer to fall of 1979. If this is accurate would the tanks in Canada have simply been at Borden, LETE, and Gagetown first for training and then the remainder deployed to Germany? If the dates aren't accurate when did the tanks arrive? During the initial arrival of the tanks in Germany where were the crews and techs trained? In Germany or Canada?

2. How many Leopard C1s did the RCD RHQ Troop have in Germany? Two?

3. How many Leopard C1s were there in Germany? RHQ Troop with 2 x C1s and then 3 x 19 C1 Squadrons? Was there another 19 or 21 x Leopard C1s in war storage in Germany?

4. Is it correct that two RCD 'C' Squadrons existed at the same time....with one in Germany and one in Gagetown? If this is correct was the 'C' Squadron in Germany designated as the "flyover" Squadron in time of crisis? Would 'C' Squadron in Gagetown have become 'D' Squadron or another designation if it deployed to Germany?

5. Finally...Canada purchased 114 x Leopard C1s....where were they all sent to originally? How many tanks were in Germany with the Regiment and with war storage. How many Leopard C1s were at the Armoured School and with which Squadrons?...Tactics, Gunnery, D&M, other? How many C1s went to Borden, LETE, or other locations? Essentially I am looking for the numbers to add up to 114.

Thanks very much in advance Fellas! Any information you can provide would be much appreciated.

 

[REDinstaller]

I can tell you that 85080 is infront of the Regt as we speak. It replaced the Sherman abreast the front doors.

 

[George Wallace]

I am looking for some information on the old Leopard C1s.

Believe it or not there is actually a book in the works on the Canadian Leopard C1 in Germany for all you old Black Hatters to drool over and I am currently trying to gather some background technical information.

1. Did the Leopard C1 first enter service in Canada or in Germany? Did crews in Germany transition directly on to the C1 or was there lag time in between the rent-a-tank Leopard 1A2s leaving and the C1s arriving in Germany? There is an old DND article that indicates that the C1s arrived in Canada in August 1978 and then in Germany in November 1978. Other sources state the C1s arrived in Germany during the summer to fall of 1979. If this is accurate would the tanks in Canada have simply been at Borden, LETE, and Gagetown first for training and then the remainder deployed to Germany? If the dates aren't accurate when did the tanks arrive? During the initial arrival of the tanks in Germany where were the crews and techs trained? In Germany or Canada?

I saw my first Leo 1 C1 in Gagetown in summer of 1978.

2. How many Leopard C1s did the RCD RHQ Troop have in Germany? Two?

2 for sure.

3. How many Leopard C1s were there in Germany? RHQ Troop with 2 x C1s and then 3 x 19 C1 Squadrons?

 

Correct.

Was there another 19 or 21 x Leopard C1s in war storage in Germany?

 

Yes there was a War Reserve in Germany.  I am not sure it was 19.  May have been only 10.

4. Is it correct that two RCD 'C' Squadrons existed at the same time....with one in Germany and one in Gagetown?

No.  C Sqn was in Gagetown with a small detachment in Lahr.

If this is correct was the 'C' Squadron in Germany designated as the "flyover" Squadron in time of crisis? 

C Sqn in Gagetown, "C FORCE", was the Flyover Sqn. 

Would 'C' Squadron in Gagetown have become 'D' Squadron or another designation if it deployed to Germany?   

No.  There was only one C Sqn.  It was fully manned in Gagetown as an Independent Tank Sqn, which was also tasked in support of the Armour School as well as being "Flyover", and it maintained approx 10 pers in Germany to ensure that their tanks in Germany were maintained.  It was the only RCD Sqn that was at full War Time strength. 

5. Finally...Canada purchased 114 x Leopard C1s....where were they all sent to originally? How many tanks were in Germany with the Regiment and with war storage. How many Leopard C1s were at the Armoured School and with which Squadrons?...Tactics, Gunnery, D&M, other? How many C1s went to Borden, LETE, or other locations? Essentially I am looking for the numbers to add up to 114. 

 

The Regiment operated 59 tanks.  War Reserve held 10 to 19 in Germany.  In Gagetown, C Sqn Gagetown had 19 tanks,  D&M Sqn had 4 Dvr Trg Tanks (Timmie the Tank) and perhaps a Dozer Tank and Gun Tank,  Gunnery Sqn had approx 6 Gun tanks, Tactics Sqn borrowed from C Sqn, Gunnery Sqn and D&M Sqn when required.  There were tanks located in LETE and Borden at the RCEME School to teach Mechs and Gun Plumbers their Trades (Not sure on numbers).

Thanks very much in advance Fellas! Any information you can provide would be much appreciated.

C Sqn RCD was the only Sqn I can think of that owned and operated two complete sqns of 19 tanks.

 

[Tango24B]

Thanks very much Gentlemen, much appreciated!

 

[George Wallace]

Just getting back to the RHQ question.  The RCD had a total of 59 gun tanks, so that does narrow it down to only two in RHQ.

 

[wildman0101]

OOOrAAA Cavalry. Bold And Swift. Scoty B

 

[cupper]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between a gun tank and your standard tank?

 

[lethalLemon]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between a gun tank and your standard tank?

Possibly tanks that are not engineering vehicles (ARV for example)?

I'm curious as well.

 

[George Wallace]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between a gun tank and your standard tank?

Possibly tanks that are not engineering vehicles (ARV for example)?

I'm curious as well.

This is a Tank Trainer......NOT a gun tank:    http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/cesar_ferreira/leopard_1_trainer/index.php?Page=2

We called it "Timmie the Tank"

It has no weaponry at all.

 

[Old Sweat]

Forgive my intrusion, but during the Second World War tanks in an armoured regiment were divided at one time into gun and support tanks. Gun tanks were in the troops. The concept had the latter armed with something like a 95mm howitzer to provide fire support and smoke. Later in the war squadron headquarters tanks carried a different ammunition load - more HE and smoke - to do the same thing, but without the complication of a different calibre.

Post war, and I am trying desperately to remember CAMT 3-1, The Armoured Regiment in Battle, besides the gun tanks, armoured regiments had command tanks and control tanks. As I remember it, command tanks had an extra radio for rear link use and were in squadron headquarters, while control tanks were in RHQ. The control tanks, besides the extra radio, might have had the gun removed to make space for a CP kit, but had a ersatz barrel so that the tank did not appear different from the others.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

There were 78 tanks in Germany, including the 19 in war reserve (as of 1980)
In Gagetown when I had K-19, I had 6 tanks, D & M Sqn had 4 trainers and one gun tank.
C Sqn had their 19 tanks.
There was one for sure at LETE; but I thought that there were only three tanks in Borden.
By my math; that adds up to 112.; and I know for a fact that we had 114.
It's possible that there were 4 or even 5 tanks in Borden. Never visited the trade schools there.....

 

[Tank Troll]

In 1986 C squadron RCD in Gagetown lost its fly over roll and C Squadron RCD in Lahr was fully manned so for about a year and a bit till the change around with the Hussars there was essentially to C Squadrons in the Dragoons

 

[Tango24B]

There were 78 tanks in Germany, including the 19 in war reserve (as of 1980)
In Gagetown when I had K-19, I had 6 tanks, D & M Sqn had 4 trainers and one gun tank.
C Sqn had their 19 tanks.
There was one for sure at LETE; but I thought that there were only three tanks in Borden.
By my math; that adds up to 112.; and I know for a fact that we had 114.
It's possible that there were 4 or even 5 tanks in Borden. Never visited the trade schools there.....

Thanks very much Lance.

As a follow-up was there a Leopard C1 in Germany modified with the IWS for testing in addition to the C1 in Gagetown with the IWS?

Are there any images of the IWS C1 that was in Gagetown kicking around?

 

[Tango24B]

In 1986 C squadron RCD in Gagetown lost its fly over roll and C Squadron RCD in Lahr was fully manned so for about a year and a bit till the change around with the Hussars there was essentially to C Squadrons in the Dragoons

I figured as much....a unique situation that will never happen again in any Regiment.

 

[George Wallace]

Thanks very much Lance.

As a follow-up was there a Leopard C1 in Germany modified with the IWS for testing in addition to the C1 in Gagetown with the IWS?

Are there any images of the IWS C1 that was in Gagetown kicking around?

I know we saw some mods done to C Sqn Tanks for trials over the years.  The Hunter Killer sight was one that we did.  Somehow the linkage actually sped up the gunnery, if I remember correctly.  We also trialed Sim kits such as the Talisee kit from Germany, Saab kit from Sweden, SIMFIRE from the UK and of course the cheapest, MILES from the US. 

 

[Tango24B]

I know we saw some mods done to C Sqn Tanks for trials over the years.  The Hunter Killer sight was one that we did.  Somehow the linkage actually sped up the gunnery, if I remember correctly.  We also trialed Sim kits such as the Talisee kit from Germany, Saab kit from Sweden, SIMFIRE from the UK and of course the cheapest, MILES from the US.

Hunter Killer sight? Was this a German PERI sight adapted to the C1 or something designed elsewhere?

In regards to the IWS testing I recall hearing /reading about one of the 8CH Leopard C1s being transported to the UK to conduct the test firing with the IWS at Royal Ordnance Defence using new high performance APFSDS-T rounds on ex-East German or captured Iraqi T-72s.

 

[Old and Tired]

I can answer two of your questions, and given a bit of time find the pictures of the arrival in Halifax of the First C1's.  The first C1's arrived at Autoport Halifax, located in eastern Passage on the Dartmouth side of the Harbour in early Late June/Early July 1978.  Maj Delvelano took his son Dan and I out to see them driven off the Ship.  I still have the pictures of use crawling all over them.

As for the War reserve in Germany FMSU held 12 C1's as of 1989 down in Zimmern.  It was an old French Armoured Recce Regt Garrison just to the north east of Rottweil (sp).  It also held some 113's, 109's and some other odds and sods.  I have some photos from there I think as well.

I'll try and track them down and post them here.

 

[George Wallace]

Ah!  A familiar name from the past.  Good man, Maj Del.

 

[Old and Tired]

Maj Del is an old family friend of my Dad and Mom.  When he retired from the Reg Force, Dad sorta, kinda dragged/blackmailed him into joining the Reserves here in NS.  At one point he was the SLOO / DCO of 33 Svc Bn in Halifax.  He used to drive an old Scoda, and take in on Ex as his sudo urban cam jeep/Iltis.

 

[Old Sweat]

When I first met Del circa 1962 he was an Algonquin Regiment 2lt in the RCD as he was going down the CT route. Suffice to say, he was an extremely colourful officer. I still consider him a friend.