Lets dispell this gay myth

[Fry]

????  (In regard to 2023's post)

 

[Infanteer]

Hey bud, I find ignorance and homophobia to be offensive and I don't want   it flaunted in my face or shoved down my throat. Maybe you should just quit while you're ahead?

Priceless.

Come to think of it, I've lived quite close to one of the largest gay communities in Canada and went to a huge university and I've never had it "shoved down my throat."  Why does everybody think they are going to get a Queer as Fold T-Shirt thrown into their face if they meet someone who is gay?

 

[c4th]

We are in the profession of arms. Close physical contact is often required. Homosexuals are not the problem, the rest of the army's reaction to them is. BUT we should not sacrifice the cohesiveness of our units on the altar of forcing some sort of social engineering agenda. The US has it just right. Dont ask, don't tell.

Regardless of DAOD 5012-0 or the number of pages of discusion this thread generates the above paragraph will remain true.  Possibly, social engineering or evolution will run it's course over the next generation or two and this will cease being an issue.  Then again, the gay community and christian right keep bringing it up, so maybe the issue will never truly go away.

 

[dutchie]

Anyone who fears what will happen if they have to shower with gays should realize that it is already a reality. Do you honestly think that all of your Section/Platoon mates are straight? Give your head a shake. And if you think there is nothing sexier to a gay man than a homophobe in a shower, you're flattering yourself.

Now, if burying your head in the sand and ignoring the obvious suits you, have at 'er. However, if you want to soldier in this Army, you must accept that you will be soldiering with some homosexuals, whether you know it or not.

 

[Infanteer]

And if you think there is nothing sexier to a gay man than a homophobe in a shower, you're flattering yourself.

Lol....as by buddy said to a guy who looked shocked when he walked into a party where a couple gay men were "Don't worry man, you're not that hot anyways...." 

 

[combat_medic]

So what I see the majority of men implying is that if a homosexual is in close proximity to another man, he will be completely incapable of restraining himself and will attack or molest the first male that gets in path, no matter what the orientation of the person? Would you also say that a heterosexual man, when in same close proximity to a woman, he will immediately lose all self-control and discipline, rip off her clothes and rape her on the spot?

What ridiculous tripe. I have personally known some homosexuals in the military, and they are far more controlled and tactful about their sexuality than the average heterosexual male I have encountered in the CF.

Furthermore, the argument of "sacrificing the cohesiveness of our units" has been used as an excuse for centuries to keep out people of colour, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, women, and gays from the military. When the first Sikhs were allowed to wear their turbans in the CF, it was argued that it would ruin the cohesiveness of the CF.... and here we are, and the End Times have not come because a few people wear a different headdress. What a shock!

 

[neuromancer]

So what I see the majority of men implying is that if a homosexual is in close proximity to another man, he will be completely incapable of restraining himself and will attack or molest the first male that gets in path, no matter what the orientation of the person? Would you also say that a heterosexual man, when in same close proximity to a woman, he will immediately lose all self-control and discipline, rip off her clothes and rape her on the spot?

Nobody is saying that, lets not do strawmen arguments shall we?

<sarcasm>Why dont we have co-ed showers? Oh! Woment feel uncomfortable?? What?? Thats outrageous, do they think
we are animals and we are just going to rape them on the spot? What rediculous tripe.</sarcasm>

Clearly this issue is more complecated than you seem to asume.

What ridiculous tripe. I have personally known some homosexuals in the military, and they are far more controlled and tactful about their sexuality than the average heterosexual male I have encountered in the CF.

Thats good to know, personally I really dont have much experience with gays or lesbians.

Furthermore, the argument of "sacrificing the cohesiveness of our units" has been used as an excuse for centuries to keep out people of colour, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, women, and gays from the military. When the first Sikhs were allowed to wear their turbans in the CF, it was argued that it would ruin the cohesiveness of the CF.... and here we are, and the End Times have not come because a few people wear a different headdress. What a shock!

Sikhs dont have to wear helmets? I didnt realise that. Boy, that sounds rather unsafe to me.

 

[Canadian Sig]

<sarcasm>Why dont we have co-ed showers? Oh! Woment feel uncomfortable?? What?? Thats outrageous, do they think
we are animals and we are just going to rape them on the spot? What rediculous tripe.</sarcasm>

  While I have never had a homosexual member of the forces make me feel uncomfortable (and I serve with a few), I wish the same could be said by my (serving member) wife in regards to hetrosexual members. They seem to feel the need to make their sexuality known in juvinile ways as often as posible.

 

[neuromancer]

  While I have never had a homosexual member of the forces make me feel uncomfortable (and I serve with a few), I wish the same could be said by my (serving member) wife in regards to hetrosexual members. They seem to feel the need to make their sexuality known in juvinile ways as often as posible.

Thats very sad to hear, but I dont think it really surprises me.

Men are quite often ignorant and childish pigs.

It seems to take a heck of a lot of self discipline, training and self-control
to make us otherwise.

If you are a man, and you are not a pig (Im not). Then dont be offended,
and try to help other men not to be that way either.

If you see it, tell them to grow up or just stop them.

 

[combat_medic]

Neuromancer: Sikhs do have to wear helmets, they just have most of the guts removed from it so it will fit over a turban.

 

[Fry]

Yeah, I kinda understand where some of you guys would be upset over the whole shower thing. No, I'm sure that gay men that shower with straight men wouldn't take the first chance to molest anyone, but as mentioned in a previous post, if I were showering with females, I wouldn't be able to help notice them, glance maybe. I'm a man, I'm attracted to women. I guess this issue will never be resolved... but I do understand the conflict.

 

[Acorn]

Sikhs dont have to wear helmets? I didnt realise that. Boy, that sounds rather unsafe to me.

Where in this:

When the first Sikhs were allowed to wear their turbans in the CF, it was argued that it would ruin the cohesiveness of the CF....

Does it say anything about not having to wear helmets?

Check your work.

Acorn

 

[neuromancer]

Neuromancer: Sikhs do have to wear helmets, they just have most of the guts removed from it so it will fit over a turban.

Ah, fewf. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was like.. wtf?!?

 

[neuromancer]

What amazes me is that people are willing to waltz into a combat zone with bullets flying and landmines going off, but are scared poo-less of the idea of taking a shower with someone who might be attracted to men (not necessarily you).

Maybe its sort of like the irrational fear of bayonets?

Its just psychological.

 

[canadianblue]

For some reason all this talk about getting coed showers makes me want to rent Starship Troopers!!!

 

[Slim]

For some reason all this talk about getting coed showers makes me want to rent Starship Troopers!!!

Just bare in mind that ANYONE could come marching through the shower doors...Notjust the pretty female medics down the hall in MIR!

Slim

 

[GO!!!]

Just to clear a few things up...

No one said they were scared of gays, only uncomfortable with them and their lifestyle. Since every other group demands and is accomodated in terms of their comfort levels and preferences (Turbans, kosher meals,vegetarians, religion) why are my preferences to be run roughshod over?

Are not my preferences as important as theirs? Evidently not.

An excellent point was brought up with the use of co-ed showers. Why not? If we allow homosexuals in the shower, why not members of the opposite sex? Because it makes people very uncomfortable, that's why. Show the same consideration to me that you would anyone else.

As for operational effectiveness, I can personally attest that even the suspicion of a gay man in an infantry unit immediately divides the unit into groups divided over how they will react to this individual. The standard seems to be merciless harassment until that person "chooses" another job. Needless to say, this is not the behaviour often associated with a cohesive, effective team.

We don't work in an office environment. Our job is intensely physical and demanding. I'm not worried that I'm going to get raped in the shower, I'm worried that my team will not be able to do it's job well, and possibly keep us alive because they don't trust/don't understand/hate another member of the team.

Like I said before, the problem is not the homosexual, it is the reaction of the unit to them. And the members of that unit have just as much right to feel uncomfortable working (which includes showering and grappling) with a homosexual as women do showering with men.

Also as I said before, a "dont ask, dont tell policy" mitigates many of these problems.

If anyone can provide an example of a regular Canadian infantry unit with an openly homosexual member who was successfully deployed on a demanding tour - I'm listening.

 

[larry Strong]

Just to clear a few things up...

No one said they were scared of gays, only uncomfortable with them and their lifestyle. Since every other group demands and is accomodated in terms of their comfort levels and preferences (Turbans, kosher meals,vegetarians, religion) why are my preferences to be run roughshod over?

Are not my preferences as important as theirs? Evidently not.

An excellent point was brought up with the use of co-ed showers. Why not? If we allow homosexuals in the shower, why not members of the opposite sex? Because it makes people very uncomfortable, that's why. Show the same consideration to me that you would anyone else.

As for operational effectiveness, I can personally attest that even the suspicion of a gay man in an infantry unit immediately divides the unit into groups divided over how they will react to this individual. The standard seems to be merciless harassment until that person "chooses" another job. Needless to say, this is not the behaviour often associated with a cohesive, effective team.

We don't work in an office environment. Our job is intensely physical and demanding. I'm not worried that I'm going to get raped in the shower, I'm worried that my team will not be able to do it's job well, and possibly keep us alive because they don't trust/don't understand/hate another member of the team.

Like I said before, the problem is not the homosexual, it is the reaction of the unit to them. And the members of that unit have just as much right to feel uncomfortable working (which includes showering and grappling) with a homosexual as women do showering with men.

Also as I said before, a "dont ask, dont tell policy" mitigates many of these problems.

If anyone can provide an example of a regular Canadian infantry unit with an openly homosexual member who was successfully deployed on a demanding tour - I'm listening.

Good point.

 

[combat_medic]

The problem with the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is that it forces people to live in secrecy - demands them to suppress who they are in order for a few homophobes to feel more comfortable with themselves. As a woman in the military, I spent my basic training sharing a mod tent with 10 men and 3 other women. I had to change in front of them every day, and have been in some pretty close quarters, both in garrison, and in the field, having to use the washroom in front of men, get changed, and do all sorts of "personal" stuff.

Have you ever been to a swimming pool in Europe (most parts)? You'll find that, very often, the shower facilities are co-ed. Also, the prevalence of nude and topless beaches throughout Europe show that they are not nearly as repressed with regards to nudity as North Americans are. Heck, Janet Jackson showed part of a breast for a fraction of a second on television and it made worldwide news (I still can't figure out why - they're fake anyway). If North American society were as liberal and open with nudity, I would be able to accept the idea of co-ed showers. If North American men were able to divorce the idea of nudity and sex, I think it would be a pretty huge leap for our society in general, and would also do a great deal to kill off a lot of the homophobia going around.

Perpetuating a status quo that attempts to segregate minorities does nothing to help the problem. If people's attitudes are to change (and make no mistake that this is a form of discrimination as real and dangerous as racism and sexism) - shutting them out or forcing their beliefs under wraps is not the way to solve it. You seem to defend perpetuating the problem instead of solving it.

 

[neuromancer]

The problem with the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is that it forces people to live in secrecy - demands them to suppress who they are in order for a few homophobes to feel more comfortable with themselves. As a woman in the military, I spent my basic training sharing a mod tent with 10 men and 3 other women. I had to change in front of them every day, and have been in some pretty close quarters, both in garrison, and in the field, having to use the washroom in front of men, get changed, and do all sorts of "personal" stuff.

Have you ever been to a swimming pool in Europe (most parts)? You'll find that, very often, the shower facilities are co-ed. Also, the prevalence of nude and topless beaches throughout Europe show that they are not nearly as repressed with regards to nudity as North Americans are. Heck, Janet Jackson showed part of a breast for a fraction of a second on television and it made worldwide news (I still can't figure out why - they're fake anyway). If North American society were as liberal and open with nudity, I would be able to accept the idea of co-ed showers. If North American men were able to divorce the idea of nudity and sex, I think it would be a pretty huge leap for our society in general, and would also do a great deal to kill off a lot of the homophobia going around.

Perpetuating a status quo that attempts to segregate minorities does nothing to help the problem. If people's attitudes are to change (and make no mistake that this is a form of discrimination as real and dangerous as racism and sexism) - shutting them out or forcing their beliefs under wraps is not the way to solve it. You seem to defend perpetuating the problem instead of solving it.

Well said!