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Lets dispell this gay myth

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2332 Piper, it's a good question, but in asking it you're imposing a bias already.

You're assuming that utilitarian philisophy is somehow superior, and asking the reader to decide between "Rule" utilitarianism and "Act" utilitarianism.

If the objective is the best outcome for the greatest number of people (utilitarianism), is that best achieved by taking each example on a case by case basis (Act Utilitarianism) or by coming up with a workable set of rules which will, the majority of the time, result in the best outcome (Rule Utilitarianism) for the people involved?

I think there's also some fundamental differences between what people mean by the term "Right". 

IIRC from Philosophy 220...

When you create a right, you create a positive obligation on every member of the state to allow you to achieve that right.  I have the right to vote, being 18 years of age, a Cdn citizen, not serving time in a fed pen (and I think that's gone as a disqualifier, too).  That means that my boss HAS to give me time to vote, the government HAS to establish polling stations, HAS to allow absentee ballots.

Now, I used to be a strict constructionist wrt rights, but I've been forced to abandon that as a philosophy as my arguments have fallen in reasoned discourse with others.

This is a great discussion, it's great to see.

DF
 
2332Piper said:
Who should decide what is 'right and wrong'? Or is what is 'right' whatever you (as an individual) think is right? Which then leads into the question of whether or not such marriage laws are useful anymore.

Since utilitarianism was brought up with regards to this question, I'd suggest looking into Rawls for an interesting take on this - it definately coincides with a rights-based Charter approach to justice and "right" that we will most likely see.   Look at "The Original Position" and the "Veil of Ignorance".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rawls

PS: This is interesting and touches many important issues, so it is going to Politics - I'm impressed by the fact that there has been a 9 page serious discussion on the topic without things getting out of hand.
 
Infanteer said:
What exactly could it open the doors to?  As I discussed elsewhere, it is fairly clear that marriage needs to be consensual - thus eliminating animals, children and innanimate objects (although arranged marriages border on this idea with social pressure - but ultimately the paired couple sign the documents).  Incestuous marriage?  Well, that notion was never really included in the definition of "man and woman" anyways, so it is another debate altogether.

I didn't mean so much as people wanting to marry an animal or a vehicle but stuff like, for example, in BC there was a church that would rent out its hall for marriages and the such. There was a gay couple who rented this hall without saying that they were renting it for a gay marriage and when the church found out they said that they cannot use the hall for that use. Of course the gay couple was mad and decided to sue the church over it. I'm not sure if the lawsuite was succesful or not but I think this is alot of what people are afraid of happening (gay rights over religious rights).

In Bountiful BC I think it would be important to note that it was a "breakaway" mormon group and not your average Church of Jesus Christ of Laterday Saints (who do not practice polygamy) mormon group.
 
atticus said:
In Bountiful BC I think it would be important to note that it was a "breakaway" mormon group and not your average Church of Jesus Christ of Laterday Saints (who do not practice polygamy) mormon group.

They did until a hundred years ago right around the same time that black people were'nt allowed to be Mormons.   ::) Thats not that long ago.

There was polygamy on our doorstop in the last 200 years. Although by the line of reasoning applying- opening up marriage to consenting adults also applies to polygamists and even consenting incestuous adults right? I cant see how you can exclude those people.....
 
atticus said:
for example, in BC there was a church that would rent out its hall for marriages and the such. There was a gay couple who rented this hall without saying that they were renting it for a gay marriage and when the church found out they said that they cannot use the hall for that use. Of course the gay couple was mad and decided to sue the church over it. I'm not sure if the lawsuite was succesful or not but I think this is alot of what people are afraid of happening (gay rights over religious rights).

It was in Port Coquitlam in 2003, it was the Knights of Columbus (Roman Catholic), was heard in front of the Human Rights Tribunal back in February (of this year) and a decision has not been reached yet (I can't image what they'd be waiting for).  As it is already starting to happen, I find it extremely difficult to accept that no-one would ever challenge the Church's traditional perogative to choose whom they decide to marry (or not).

The Charter of Rights grants/recognizes individuals the right to choose whatever religion they want: it does not necessarily follow that Religions are free to practice however/whatever they want.

There is a fundamental moral/religious/Rights issue, but there is also the (conflicting, depending on your point of view) issue of creeping Statism and Supreme Court Activism/Interventionism (specifically WRT what consitutes a Right and what that means for us unwashed masses).
 
The "philosophy" of the Liberal Party of Canada is to win the election, period. Liberal strategists only
pay attention to their own polls, and they focus on numbers - the idea being "who has the most numbers, signified by the familier "x" on the ballot, wins". They analyse constituencies, focused on
the Liberal street people, the poll workers, enumerators, the candidate's resources, friends and
supporters, traditional Liberal families, previous voter trends, etc., etc. If one wants an academic
perspective with highly literate points of view, focused differences of opinion, the world according to Garp, or whatever, stick with the NDP (who have already sold out to the Liberals for a few coins;
what a surprise!") The Federal Conservatives cannot beat the Liberals this time, they have made the fatal political mistake of forcing the Government into an election mode, which will cost
them dearly - is this good for the Country?- of course not, but there it is. MacLeod
 
jmacleod said:
The "philosophy" of the Liberal Party of Canada is to win the election, period.

As much as I despise the Liberals, so far, no other party has convinced me that they are not sharing the same goals.

You think the Conservatives CARE? Give me a break, they are all the same in this respect.
 
Good then. It's settled.

You Jim, can now marry Harry.

I in turn will marry Jen, Leanne and Lindsay.

I expect  the support of half the nation - especially the "progressives" - after all - it's my right - RIGHT!

Oh - and I want the baby bonus, spousal dependant tax exemption (x3) paternity leave every time one gets pregnant (I can't wait) and free health care.

Tell me why this is an implausible "slippery slope" argument?
 
Piper,

We had a post mod philosophy student in my last SHARP class, he had the poor moderator tearing his hair out by the end of it!

It seems to me that, in order to effectively separate faith and politics, we do need to recognize that the church has a roll in expounding it's moral code, and in educating people in it's teachings, but it does not have a roll in DIRECTLY shaping national policy.  I know that there's members of just about every faith on the planet on either side of this debate; when did the United Church ordain women and homosexuals?  When did the Anglicans (here and abroad), the RC's, the Ba'hai (sp?), Buddhists, Shinto, etc.  Inasmuch as these faith groups (broad definition working from the same liturgy) are unable to internally reconcile their positions, we cannot treat them as a coherent block of believers.

If I like kiddy porn, and we can agree the harm comes from the exploitation of the child whose image is being captured, is it still wrong for me to find a young-looking 19 year old, dress her in a kilt and pigtails, and take pictures of it?  If I get off torturing people, there's lots of clubs I can join that are full of masochists just waiting for a guy to step up and slap them around.  If there's no harm to the individual, and everyone consents, is it still â Å“wrongâ ??  I can't see that it is, unless you can demonstrate a harm to society as a whole that this occurs, which is an argument that some will make.

I think the slippery slope argument is very apt here, but it does seem to be resolved by the reasonable limits clause; your right to wave your fists around ends when it connects with my nose. Now, granted, that implies a necessary balance between individual rights, and that seems to be the crux of this whole argument.

I fully agree that we need to redefine both â Å“moralâ ? and â Å“rightâ ? with regards to social interactions in this country in order to resolve this issue.  Utilitarianism has given us such great policies as eugenics and by extension nationalism and Nazism , and therefore shouldn't be trusted, but the Judeo-Christian traditions have also been the cause of a huge amount of suffering in the world, too, and are to be, from my left-coast libertarian position, questioned.

Baloo, my CPC riding association just nominated a fundamentalist Christian lawyer as our local candidate.  I'm pretty pissed at the conflict, and I doubt ANY party will get my vote this time around, since I will not help send her to Ottawa, but the alternatives are just as bad for a fiscal and politically conservative civil libertarian.

DF


 
When you dispel a gay myth, does it go *poof*?

The original purpose of marriage seems to have been to tie men to their obligations (ie. children).  It appears now people want the defining purpose to be companionship.  So be it.  Those of you concerned about polygamy shouldn't assume it must follow, but I doubt there will be any arguments sufficiently strong to stop it if anyone does care to take up its cause.

The attack on churches is indirect.  The idea isn't to force believers to participate in rituals to which they object; the idea is to marginalize religions and reduce their political clout.

Fundamental issues of morality and rights are absolutes which do not have the properties of being mutable or negotiable.  If this is not so, then there must be no preferred position, so that the concept of morality is merely an unnecessarily complex expression of "my friends and I won't let you do that" - a veil of tyranny of the majority drawn over the natural law of the jungle - and thus everyone should feel free to do whatever he thinks he can get away with.  But we presume the existence of a good in order to define what is moral, which is a contradiction.

In simpler terms, if nothing matters, then neither does the opinion that nothing matters, and any attempt at relativism must falsify itself.
 
Brad Sallows said:
In simpler terms, if nothing matters, then neither does the opinion that nothing matters, and any attempt at relativism must falsify itself.

Brings to mind a quote Sartre never made: "Existentialism: why bother?"
 
What gay myth do you wish to dispel ?
To me there is only one issue where gay's are concerned - gay's in the military. At present the US military has a dont ask dont tell policy. Once a soldier/anchor clanker/jarhead or zoomie indicates they are gay then they are in violation of the UCMJ and are seperated from the service. What the gay community does in the civilian world is of little concern to me.
 
Brad Sallows said:
The original purpose of marriage seems to have been to tie men to their obligations (ie. children).  


From a purely legal perspective, for Christian British subjects in North America, marriage was originally a solemn contract to cement the transfer of a portion of wealth between families, in either form of a dowry or woman as a form of property. If the wealth didn't transfer, the marriage was never legal because the contract was not performed. A marriage could be annulled because of a false material representation of the status of the health of the woman or the size of the dowry, in other words a breach of contract. 

Just for the heck of it, go into a law library sometime and flip through the musty pages of family law decisions in Upper and Lower Canada, especially the 4 decades prior to Confederation. Truly awful stuff- marriage was predominately a contractual financial relationship that was as politicized then as it is now.
 
Caesar said:
well, it's nice to see we've come a long way, huh? We will probably have conflict over some aspect of marriage as long as it forms such a critical role in Canadian society. It's just too important not to argue about, I guess.

I guess what I was getting that is that while marriage may no longer be solely fuelled by property and assets, divorce proceedings certainly are!! One would have to have their head deep in the sand if one fails to see the politics behind support and custody law. I am especially interested to see if same sex marriage is going to steer gender based arguments away from the current state of bias to a more neutral position in family law.  Is a judge really going to ask "which one of you two gentlemen is the woman of the household, because I need to know which of you was truly at the mercy of the other"?

 
Brad Sallows said:
Fundamental issues of morality and rights are absolutes which do not have the properties of being mutable or negotiable.   If this is not so, then there must be no preferred position, so that the concept of morality is merely an unnecessarily complex expression of "my friends and I won't let you do that" - a veil of tyranny of the majority drawn over the natural law of the jungle - and thus everyone should feel free to do whatever he thinks he can get away with.   But we presume the existence of a good in order to define what is moral, which is a contradiction.

The problem, though, is defining the true, absolute, fundamentals of morality and rights. To some permitting homosexuality is immoral, and they cannot be budged off of that position. To them it is an absolute, though it conflicts with the rights entrenched in our Charter.

The fact of the real world is that each culture acts exactly as you describe. Mankind doesn't have a hardwired "morality gene," so societies accept the tyrrany of the majority. Sure, it's not that easy - some "traditional" practices are consistently resisted to varying degrees - oppression of women being one example. That being said, I defy you to draw a clear line of immutable morality and rights.

Acorn
 
tomahawk6 said:
What gay myth do you wish to dispel ?
To me there is only one issue where gay's are concerned - gay's in the military. At present the US military has a dont ask dont tell policy. Once a soldier/anchor clanker/jarhead or zoomie indicates they are gay then they are in violation of the UCMJ and are seperated from the service. What the gay community does in the civilian world is of little concern to me.

ok.. then a loaded question for you...

What makes a Gay person unfit for service?
 
Nothing makes Gays unfit for service - except for the adverse reaction that those around them have.

Yes, I know, all your friends are gay, you are all in units with 10-50% gays, so is the OC and you work fine together. But I would venture that a light/Parachute infantry unit with a gay and proud member would be a disaster.

My 2cents.
 
GO!!! said:
a light/Parachute infantry unit with a gay and proud member would be a disaster.

I've heard of only one "member" who came out on tour in an Inf Coy.   From his Pl Comd none of the lads had a problem with it.   However, It was well into the tour and not the first day of pre-training.   By that point he had obviously proved himself as a capable soldier.    I reckon that since no one was getting any anyway, his lifestyle had little relevance to his section mates.

No one should mistake this one antidotal story as an acceptance of gays in the infantry.   Soldiers, in my experience, are merciless towards those they even suspect of playing for the other team.    I can't say if one gay male member would be a disaster for any light unit. I can say that if he is gay and proud, his life particularly in garrison will be much harder.  


 
 
An interesting twist (although I'm not sure this would be unique to same sex couples) ...

Kids in legal gray area when gay couples split

By Richard Willing, USA TODAY Tue Jun 21, 7:19 AM ET

Two women in El Dorado County, Calif., Elisa Maria B. and her domestic partner Emily B., decided they wanted a family.

So when Emily became pregnant by means of a sperm donor and gave birth to twins in 1998, the lesbian couple faced a lifestyle choice. Emily, the couple decided, would stay home with the kids, one of whom had Down syndrome and required constant care. Elisa would be the breadwinner.

Court papers omit the women's last names as standard procedure to protect minors in cases about parenthood.

The couple split up 18 months later. Elisa cut off financial support, prompting Emily and her children to go on welfare. El Dorado County sued Elisa for child support, and she refused to pay. Her argument: I'm not the children's father.

Sometime this summer, the California Supreme Court will rule on the case of Elisa and Emily and two similar appeals. At issue: In same-sex relationships, what makes a person a parent? Is it biology, existing legal standards or whether that person acts like a parent?

If Elisa and Emily had been an unmarried heterosexual couple, their dispute probably would have been resolved already. In California and other states, courts look at how such couples define their relationship to determine parentage.

In California and elsewhere, unmarried same-sex couples that split up have begun asking courts to treat them like heterosexuals in matters of child custody.

Wide potential impact

Family law professor Ed Stein of Cardozo Law School in New York City says the three cases are especially important because courts in other states are likely to be guided by California's example.

The cases come as assisted-reproduction technology becomes more readily available to same-sex couples.

The 2000 Census found about 92,000 same-sex couples in California. As of December, though, only 29,000 had registered under a state law that permits same-sex couples to enjoy most legal rights available to heterosexual couples. The law does not address the parental rights issues raised by these cases.

And the use of assisted-reproduction technology, including donated sperm, in vitro fertilization and donated fertilized eggs, is rapidly increasing. The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that 45,751 babies were born through assisted reproduction in 2002 - a 120% increase from the 20,840 in 1996.

Similar legal cases are working their way through the courts in Utah, Georgia and Washington state. In Colorado last year, a state appellate court granted visitation to the former partner of a lesbian who had adopted a baby from China. Courts in New York, Vermont and Pennsylvania have ruled that both partners of same-sex couples who split may be considered parents.

"Reproductive technology is running so far ahead of law and policy," says Emily Doskow, a Berkeley, Calif., attorney who is editor of A Legal Guide for Lesbian and Gay Couples. The California cases, she says, are a sign "the law is trying to keep up."

Variations in cases

The California cases, which were argued May 24 before the state Supreme Court in San Francisco, differ in their details:

"¢ In the case of Elisa B. and Emily B., a trial court agreed that Elisa is not the twins' legal father and has no child-support obligations. A state appeals court reversed that decision and said that Elisa should be granted visitation rights as well as be compelled to help support the children.

At the California Supreme Court, Elisa's attorneys cited state law and an earlier appeals court decision involving heterosexual couples to argue that a non-biological partner cannot be considered a parent.

In legal papers, Emily's lawyers pointed out that the couple had named the children as beneficiaries on life insurance policies and had even shared breast-feeding duties. Acting like a parent, they argued, creates parental rights and duties.

"¢ In K.M. v. E.G., a case from Marin County, north of San Francisco, a fertilized egg from K.M. was implanted in E.G., who had twins in 1996. When the couple broke up in 2002, E.G. denied K.M. access to the children. She cited a waiver of parental rights K.M. signed when she donated her egg.

Relying on the waiver, two lower courts held that K.M. is not a legal parent. At the state Supreme Court, K.M.'s lawyers argued that how the couple lived - both functioning as parents - should trump the waiver. To decide otherwise, K.M.'s lawyer Jill Hersh wrote, would harm the children.

"¢ In Kristine H. v. Lisa R., a Los Angeles case, one partner in an eight-year relationship had a daughter through artificial insemination. Before the girl was born, the birth mother, Kristine, sought and received a court judgment that Lisa was the legal father and that both partners were the parents.

About 21/2 years after the child was born, the couple separated. Kristine asked the court to void the judgment and rule that Lisa had no visitation rights. An appeals court agreed with her. At the state Supreme Court, Kristine's attorney, Honey Kessler Amado, argued that she never intended to grant her then-partner full paternity rights.

Lisa's attorneys, Leslie Shear and Diane Goodman, countered that the court judgment and Lisa's subsequent behavior as a parent entitled her to visitation.

Adoption not involved

None of the couples in these cases had adopted the children. Courtney Joslin, the lawyer for Emily B., says in all three cases, the children's "birth into the world came about because of the intentional conduct of two people" - the partners. "That's what we think is most important here," says Joslin, a senior staff attorney for the National Center for Lesbian Rights.

Stein, of Cardozo Law School, says that argument has a good chance of succeeding.

During oral arguments before the state Supreme Court, Stein says, some justices seemed convinced that "fairness" requires them to extend parental rights to gay, non-biological partners. Other justices, Stein says, seemed to believe that extending parental rights strengthens families and better protects children.

"The (legal principle) here is that the reality of a relationship is determined by its functionality," Stein says. "That's a direction in which the law, generally speaking, is headed."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050621/ts_usatoday/kidsinlegalgrayareawhengaycouplessplit
 
Wow, that is quite the twist.

However, biology can't be considered the only claim to parenthood - otherwise we'd be tracking down the sperm donor for this lesbian couple's child and tagging him with the bill, would we not?

Perhaps, since it remains related to our discussion of marriage, that any redefinition of the legal idea of marriage should include, with the formation of a "household", a clause that obligates both members of the household to responsibility for children produced by it, be they straight or gay, be it that the child was conceived (through copulation or other means) or adopted.  I'm sure that is alot of legal wrangling, but I believe that it should be one of the obligations of marriage.

This seems to be a bit of an odd case because the couple was only together for 18 months, however, I'm inclined to agree with, "Courtney Joslin, the lawyer for Emily B., says in all three cases, the children's "birth into the world came about because of the intentional conduct of two people" - the partners."  Since this seems to be the case, I'd argue that being gay doesn't give one the right to be a dead-beat...err...lesbian.
 
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