LGBTQ Stuff (split from other political threads)

[dimsum]

I do not agree with everything that Eaglelord just wrote, or how he phrased things, but broadly he said that kids should receive age appropriate education (you and he clearly differ on the appropriate age, but that is semantics); that mental health issues/suicide is higher in the trans community (uncontroversial) and that once adults, people should be free to live how they like.

I agree that it’s not controversial that Trans community has higher MH / suicide rate. But why is it higher, and more specifically, would it be lower if it was less vilified by some areas?

As to @Eaglelord17 ’s point about waiting until later, sorry for using religion as such a low hanging fruit but if we can tell a child (I went to Catholic school until high school) that there’s one supreme being who’s son was born of a virgin birth but has a “biological” dad, but that son is also that supreme being, but there’s also another, more theoretical supreme being, and they’re all somehow the same but we speak of them as three different things…I was taught that at Kindergarten but still managed to keep it straight in my head. And when kids ask “how does that work” the answer is “…because.”

How is “Bobby’s dad now wants to be his mom” or “Jenny wants to be James” more confusing than that?

Anyways, I’m sure I’ve seen it discussed before (probably here) but the trans debate is pretty much the Gay/Lesbian/Bi debate of the 1990s. In about 20-30 years people will look back and say “Why the F were we so bent out of shape over this?” Fittingly, I was catching up on AppleTV’s For All Mankind Season 3 (amazing show btw) and they just got to the part where in the fictional timeline, the US military had to bring up Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. It took me a beat to say “why would the US military care if someone was gay….oh right.”

 

[suffolkowner]

IMO people continue to lump various phenomena into a Trans diagnosis. This is somewhat common in the medical profession when dealing with the expression of the condition and the cause remains unknown.

If one limits the trans discussion to the condition of male/female it would be somewhat more straightforward however trans ideology is rooted in post modernism and its rejection of objective reality and thus the "gender" as opposed to sex or identities are unlimited. It is why people can be goats etc..

As of yet there is no known physiological condition associated with trans individuals including intersex disorders of development.

The search has continued for homosexuality

https://twitter.com/x/status/1704633529605484834

 

[Lumber]

If you think about it for a few minutes, perhaps you can come up with the answer yourself. it is, self-evidently, in your own post.

Well, yea, but I was giving you and others to give me an alternate explanation for the what I believe to be true. (hint: it's has nothing all to do with "parent's rights").

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Well, yea, but I was giving you and others to give me an alternate explanation for the what I believe to be true. (hint: it's has nothing all to do with "parent's rights").

My point was that school boards have massively over-reached into areas that they should not be going.

There. are school boards that are captive to various religious factions and school boards that are captive to various progressive factions.

All are certain that their doctrines need to be taught and accepted by all students (and parents) as orthodoxy.

By, perhaps, limiting school boards to more… mechanical issues…of education, we could perhaps save ourselves a bunch of strife and allow people to live and let live and be accepting of others, regardless of their sexual orientation.

If you do not think indoctrination is not occurring in some school districts (to the point where it is difficult even to have a rationale discussion on the merits of some of the educational goals), you are either not paying attention or do not have kids in that system.

Before you jump down my throat and trot out a strawman argument, I once again strongly and forcefully point out that I am as against flat earthers and creationists hijacking curriculum in a public school system as I am against progressives hijacking curriculum. In a religious or private school- I could care less. People know (or should know) what they are getting there. Public School Curriculum needs to be anodine, by design.

 

[ArmyRick]

My point was that school boards have massively over-reached into areas that they should not be going.

There. are school boards that are captive to various religious factions and school boards that are captive to various progressive factions.

All are certain that their doctrines need to be taught and accepted by all students (and parents) as orthodoxy.

By, perhaps, limiting school boards to more… mechanical issues…of education, we could perhaps save ourselves a bunch of strife and allow people to live and let live and be accepting of others, regardless of their sexual orientation.

If you do not think indoctrination is not occurring in some school districts (to the point where it is difficult even to have a rationale discussion on the merits of some of the educational goals), you are either not paying attention or do not have kids in that system.

Before you jump down my throat and trot out a strawman argument, I once again strongly and forcefully point out that I am as against flat earthers and creationists hijacking curriculum in a public school system as I am against progressives hijacking curriculum. In a religious or private school- I could care less. People know (or should know) what they are getting there. Public School Curriculum needs to be anodine, by design.

Very much on point, well said

 

[Jarnhamar]

There is a sort of duty to report angle here that's being overlooked I think.

The school argument appears to be that if a child from a non LGBTQ friendly home comes out to the teacher and the teacher informs the parents then the child is at risk of abuse, including physical abuse.

If you think about it, that's a ticking time bomb. A parent might find out any number of ways thus putting that child at risk of harm.

If a teacher is informed by a student that they're LGBTQ and they can't disclose it to their parents due to a fear of mental or physical abuse, then the teacher are required to report it to Children's Aid.

Why do you call CAS in Ontario?
In Ontario, you are required by law to report suspected child abuse or neglect. If you have reasonable grounds to suspect that a child is or may be in need of protection, you must report it to a children's aid society.

The paradox here is that the school doesn't inform the parents about the childs name/gender change due to the child's fears. Due to the child living in fear of being outed and the ramifications of it, the school should engage with CAS. CAS would investigate, likely involving speaking with the parents thus outting the child.


A school-led program designed to assist with children speaking to their parents about their gender seems better than putting teachers in a position where they're misleading or even lying to parents about their kids.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Sorry, not sorry. Everything I said was rational. Opinions like his harm children.


We probably don't actually disagree on the age appropriateness of what is being taught, we probably disagree fundamentally on what should be taught at all.



Anything, and I mean anything, that either leads to trans/lgtbq kids feeling worse about themselves is harmful, whether that's an increase it an internal feeling like they don't belong or are "not normal", or external bullying by other kids who don't see them as normal.



Sure, but if the state is teaching the truth and people don't like what the state is teaching, the they can home school their children. If a group of flat earth parents was protesting "to protect the children" because school are teaching the earth is round, I'd tell them to get fucked, and that their children deserve to hear the truth. In this case, these parents don't want children being taught about homosexuality or transgenderism AT ALL, so you have children who feel different from the majority of their peers (whether they are gay, transgendered, or similar) and these parents don't want any lessons AT ALL on these subjects, age appropriate or not. And don't tell me explaining homosexuality needs to be taught at an older age. A 4 year old can clearly and safely comprehend that their friends could have two mom/dads instead of the typical mom/dad.

Opinions like yours harm children. Especially when we get garbage like hormone blockers involved.

We do likely disagree on a lot of what should be taught, to me gender theory is a waste of tax dollars and there is much better things we could actually educate them on which will benefit them much more.

I don’t believe there is transgender kids or gay kids, until they hit puberty they can’t possibly even begin to comprehend what those terms even mean. Children aren’t rational, they can’t make decisions for themselves as they cannot understand the consequences of said actions. Its why you can’t charge a child with a crime and why they ultimately are under the care of a adult until they themselves are a adult.

You argue this is the truth and the government must teach it. I argue this is a very new theory (key word here, not proven or disproven) that we are forcing down the throats of children well before they are ready for such information.

My favourite part about this unproven theory is any disagreement with it is met with such vitriol and hostility that you cannot have any sort of rational conversation about it. That is not educating people, that is indoctrinating people.

You view this as a attack on trans people, it isn’t. This is a debate about what should be taught to children and when, as well as what information should the state withhold from parents.

Keep in mind there is now bullying by LGBT….. supporters towards anyone with a different viewpoint. For a group which is so supposedly based on acceptance it sure spends a lot of time being intolerant to others beliefs.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Saying "dysphoria" is mental illness at one point and then later simply saying it isn't just doesn't wash. When there is often a small package of associated dys-whatevers present, it's a stretch to claim "oh, this one thing is perfectly normal; it's just all the others that are out of normal bounds".

This problem escalated when cross-gender behaviour among kids stopped being something they were left to work out themselves and became a tool for advancing political and social agendas.

 

[Kirkhill]

As to @Eaglelord17 ’s point about waiting until later, sorry for using religion as such a low hanging fruit but if we can tell a child (I went to Catholic school until high school) that there’s one supreme being who’s son was born of a virgin birth but has a “biological” dad, but that son is also that supreme being, but there’s also another, more theoretical supreme being, and they’re all somehow the same but we speak of them as three different things…I was taught that at Kindergarten but still managed to keep it straight in my head. And when kids ask “how does that work” the answer is “…because.”

Now you are starting to sound like Arius - the Christian who was Christian before Augustine of Hippo got into the game. He was really popular with the Greeks and Germans before Charlemagne.

Arius - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Him, and Nestor and Origen (yes there were Ori) also couldn't wrap their heads around the Trinitarian arguments. They, like the Jews and the Muslims believed in one god and in Jesus being a man. They were all Unitarians.

But anyway, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

[Lumber]

Saying "dysphoria" is mental illness at one point and then later simply saying it isn't just doesn't wash. When there is often a small package of associated dys-whatevers present, it's a stretch to claim "oh, this one thing is perfectly normal; it's just all the others that are out of normal bounds".

This problem escalated when cross-gender behaviour among kids stopped being something they were left to work out themselves and became a tool for advancing political and social agendas.

Right! Just like calling homosexuality an illness at one point and then later saying it isn't just doesn't wash either!

Oh wait...

 

[Lumber]

A school-led program designed to assist with children speaking to their parents about their gender seems better than putting teachers in a position where they're misleading or even lying to parents about their kids.

Ok so you are for schools teaching children what homosexuality and transgenderism are, and for having a process by which to deal with those issues when they arise. This all seems reasonable to me.

 

[Lumber]

My point was that school boards have massively over-reached into areas that they should not be going.

There. are school boards that are captive to various religious factions and school boards that are captive to various progressive factions.

All are certain that their doctrines need to be taught and accepted by all students (and parents) as orthodoxy.

By, perhaps, limiting school boards to more… mechanical issues…of education, we could perhaps save ourselves a bunch of strife and allow people to live and let live and be accepting of others, regardless of their sexual orientation.

If you do not think indoctrination is not occurring in some school districts (to the point where it is difficult even to have a rationale discussion on the merits of some of the educational goals), you are either not paying attention or do not have kids in that system.

Before you jump down my throat and trot out a strawman argument, I once again strongly and forcefully point out that I am as against flat earthers and creationists hijacking curriculum in a public school system as I am against progressives hijacking curriculum. In a religious or private school- I could care less. People know (or should know) what they are getting there. Public School Curriculum needs to be anodine, by design.

I don't disagree with anything you just said. I've heard stories (without any evidence to back it up) that some schools/teachers are teaching their students (all students, not just LGBTQ ones) not to trust their parents, and to hide things from their parents. That's not cool.

I also agree indoctrination shouldn't be happening in any schools (I'm against religious schools).

The problem is that your definition of indoctrination, and my definition, and someone else's definition, are NOT the same.

Many of those protesting this week have the view that merely teaching what homosexuality and transgerderism are as tantamount to indoctrinating children, even if it is taught in a completely anodine way.

Or to take a piece from my sub-thread with EagleLord, if the children are taught that Transgendeism is a mental illness, that's ok, but teach that it's not a mental illness, then that's indoctrination, even though major world medical institutions treat it as such (not an illness).

 

[Lumber]

I don’t believe there is transgender kids or gay kids, until they hit puberty they can’t possibly even begin to comprehend what those terms even mean.

This an extremely ignorant thing to say: do you literally have no gay friends? Kids are born gay. I have not met a gay person yet who, upon reflection, didn't "know they were gay" from a very early age. Sure they probably didn't know what "gay" meant at the time, but they saw there friends having crushes on girls and talking about girls, and they were confused why they didn't feel the same way.

The results of this ignorance are multifaceted. Internally, the kid feels confused, and scared. They wonder what is wrong with them, and why they are different. Externally, it leads to hate and bullying from straight kids who, having not been taught about homosexuality, believe that gays kids are an abhorhant anomoly.

We need to teach kids that being gay is normal and completely acceptable, or else you get examples like that 10 year old kid at the march in Calgary getting on stage and shouting "gays are disgusting".

But, I guess THAT would be indoctrination and infringing on parents rights, no?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Right! Just like calling homosexuality an illness at one point and then later saying it isn't just doesn't wash either!

Oh wait...

Plain ordinary homosexuality doesn't often present with other disorders. Nor did transgenderism, as recently as a few years ago when it was rare. "Nature" doesn't move very quickly, which leaves "nurture" to explain why current numbers are so elevated. And "nurture" is something people do to other people.

Maybe transgenderism - as currently expressed by many people - isn't a disorder, and we will learn that by treating and eliminating all the other factors. But there's too much noise in the signal to know, and a point blank assertion isn't good enough right now.

 

[Lumber]

Plain ordinary homosexuality doesn't often present with other disorders. Nor did transgenderism, as recently as a few years ago when it was rare. "Nature" doesn't move very quickly, which leaves "nurture" to explain why current numbers are so elevated. And "nurture" is something people do to other people.

Maybe transgenderism - as currently expressed by many people - isn't a disorder, and we will learn that by treating and eliminating all the other factors. But there's too much noise in the signal to know, and a point blank assertion isn't good enough right now.

Fair enough.

But what is well documented is that being told "you are abnormal", especially to a child, is very damaging to their mental heath, whereas telling them "you are normal" has the opposite effect.

So, if the jury is still out, as you claim, I'd rather sit on the side of doing things that will have a net benefit toward our childrens' mental health. Why the hell not?

 

[suffolkowner]

What is gender dysphoria or dysmorphia? What is its based on? At this point we do not really have an idea. Is it fundamentally an undiagnosed intersex condition? Is it a mental disorder? Whatever that means? A social contagion? All of the above?

If you think you are a wolf, I feel comfortable saying that is not something that should be routinely supported

What gender are you?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1705197250509423020

 

[Eaglelord17]

This an extremely ignorant thing to say: do you literally have no gay friends? Kids are born gay. I have not met a gay person yet who, upon reflection, didn't "know they were gay" from a very early age. Sure they probably didn't know what "gay" meant at the time, but they saw there friends having crushes on girls and talking about girls, and they were confused why they didn't feel the same way.

The results of this ignorance are multifaceted. Internally, the kid feels confused, and scared. They wonder what is wrong with them, and why they are different. Externally, it leads to hate and bullying from straight kids who, having not been taught about homosexuality, believe that gays kids are an abhorhant anomoly.

We need to teach kids that being gay is normal and completely acceptable, or else you get examples like that 10 year old kid at the march in Calgary getting on stage and shouting "gays are disgusting".

But, I guess THAT would be indoctrination and infringing on parents rights, no?

I have a few gay friends, and until they hit puberty they had no idea as how can you possibly think kids develop their sense of sexuality when they don’t even have a sex drive. Even then it took several years for them to realize they were actually gay.

Growing up is a confusing time for everyone, pretending they have extra struggles because they are ‘gay’ or not is asinine. How can someone be gay if they aren’t even aware of sexuality? How can a 4 year old declare they are gay and understand the meaning behind it when they can’t even effectively decide what to eat?

Maybe these ‘gay’ kids are simply seeking attention/validation from their parental figures and going along with what they are being told by their role models.

Muddying the waters with too much information above the childs comprehension is a problem and in this case it seems to be for the possible benefit of a small minority at the cost of some of the majority. Not all education is good education.

 

[Remius]

I have a few gay friends, and until they hit puberty they had no idea as how can you possibly think kids develop their sense of sexuality when they don’t even have a sex drive. Even then it took several years for them to realize they were actually gay.

How about you? Did you think you liked girls or boys before you hit puberty? I can assure I knew I liked girls. I however had no idea how to express that until later.

Growing up is a confusing time for everyone, pretending they have extra struggles because they are ‘gay’ or not is asinine. How can someone be gay if they aren’t even aware of sexuality? How can a 4 year old declare they are gay and understand the meaning behind it when they can’t even effectively decide what to eat?

See my answer above. One can be something despite not being able or capable of expressing it. And I’m curious about how many 4 year declare they are gay and are taken seriously or not?

Maybe these ‘gay’ kids are simply seeking attention/validation from their parental figures and going along with what they are being told by their role models.

This is a becoming a tired line and excuse from one side of the isle. Your use of parentheses indicates you don’t even believe people can be gay and that it is some sort of learned behaviour.

Muddying the waters with too much information above the childs comprehension is a problem and in this case it seems to be for the possible benefit of a small minority at the cost of some of the majority. Not all education is good education.

The comprehension issue doesn’t come from the kids. I think a lot of adults struggle with it as well based ok some comments I’ve been seing on this here.

 

[Eaglelord17]

How about you? Did you think you liked girls or boys before you hit puberty? I can assure I knew I liked girls. I however had no idea how to express that until later.

See my answer above. One can be something despite not being able or capable of expressing it. And I’m curious about how many 4 year declare they are gay and are taken seriously or not?

This is a becoming a tired line and excuse from one side of the isle. Your use of parentheses indicates you don’t even believe people can be gay and that it is some sort of learned behaviour.

The comprehension issue doesn’t come from the kids. I think a lot of adults struggle with it as well based ok some comments I’ve been seing on this here.

For me I didn’t spend my childhood attracted to males or females, it wasn’t even something that crossed my mind. It also wasn’t something that was pushed on me one way or another. My family wasn’t big on public displays of affection, and they kept things very child friendly.

I believe people can be gay, simply that children cannot. Just as children cannot be straight. For children, most of what they do is learned behaviour. They don’t start branching out from that learned behaviour until they are teenagers.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't disagree with anything you just said. I've heard stories (without any evidence to back it up) that some schools/teachers are teaching their students (all students, not just LGBTQ ones) not to trust their parents, and to hide things from their parents. That's not cool.

I also agree indoctrination shouldn't be happening in any schools (I'm against religious schools).

The problem is that your definition of indoctrination, and my definition, and someone else's definition, are NOT the same.

Many of those protesting this week have the view that merely teaching what homosexuality and transgerderism are as tantamount to indoctrinating children, even if it is taught in a completely anodine way.

Or to take a piece from my sub-thread with EagleLord, if the children are taught that Transgendeism is a mental illness, that's ok, but teach that it's not a mental illness, then that's indoctrination, even though major world medical institutions treat it as such (not an illness).

There is little need to teach about it in Elementary level schools. In High schools teaching about Homosexuality can literally be a 1 hour block and then move on. Perhaps another hour on how the laws have changed in Canada. However don't underestimate adults and organizations to go full stupid. They try to outdo each other on this issue to prove their "Progressiveness". Both my daughters are open minded and have Trans/wannabe Trans friends and even they are utterly sick of the issue and how much it's pushed. If a elementary kid gets told by other kid "You throw like a girl, then they get told by the teacher "Maybe your gay, perhaps you should think about being gay". When all they needed to do is to say. "It's fine, everyone plays differently" and go have a word with the other kid. Basically leave the kids alone and don't mess with their heads.
If they want a "Pride Crosswalk", let the gay community raise the funds and pay for it themselves.