LGBTQ Stuff (split from other political threads)

[rmc_wannabe]

'Conversion therapy" is not surgery and who determines what is defined as conversion therapy?

This lovely piece of legislation right here.

Definition of conversion therapy​

320.‍101 In sections 320.‍102 to 320.‍104, conversion therapy means a practice, treatment or service designed to

• (a) change a person’s sexual orientation to heterosexual;
• (b) change a person’s gender identity to cisgender;
• (c) change a person’s gender expression so that it conforms to the sex assigned to the person at birth;
• (d) repress or reduce non-heterosexual attraction or sexual behaviour;
• (e) repress a person’s non-cisgender gender identity; or
• (f) repress or reduce a person’s gender expression that does not conform to the sex assigned to the person at birth.

For greater certainty, this definition does not include a practice, treatment or service that relates to the exploration or development of an integrated personal identity — such as a practice, treatment or service that relates to a person’s gender transition — and that is not based on an assumption that a particular sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression is to be preferred over another.

If my pre-puberty kid is confused about their gender and I take them to counselling to help them align their feeling with the biological equipment, is that also conversion therapy?

Depends on if they want to be content with the gender they're assigned with at birth or if they wish to transition. Thst is a decision that individual child would disclose to the care provider and they would work towards whatever goal the person experiencing gender dysmorphia wants to work towards.

The child is the patient, not the parent.

My youngest went through a period where she said she was gender neutral, then she decided she was gay and has a "girlfriend". But now is talking about marrying a guy in the future.

It is fantastic that you provided an environment that was hospitable for her to figure out where she wantes to be in her sexual orientation and gender expression. That is textbook allyship parenting and what a majority (55%) of 2SLGBTQIA+ kids will never experience.

Puberty has the final say.

Nope. Count the many middle age adults who transition later in life because they were put in a box physically they never were in. I serve with several on my Defence Team Pride Advisory Organisation here in Kingston. What has changed is the support and acceptance e within society to allow pre puberty Trans kids a chance to voice their preference before the train leaves the station. If it's like I said above : Consistent, Persistent, and Direct that they want to transition, they don't have to live 20, 30 years as an imposter in their own eyes.

I will argue that majority of the confusion is caused by educators, advocates and others all wrapped up in pushing this agenda. When the actual number of truly genderless/gay kids is a tiny minority.

The majority of the confusion is with the lack of education and understanding from those who wish to remain ignorant.

What agenda is being pushed? "Be who you feel you are? Love who you want to love? Not everyone is gay, straight, cis, or Trans and that's OK?"

We change pronouns every APS. I guarantee you work with a Col that was once an OCdt. Hell I was a Pte once and now I'm an Lt after 17 years. Are you going tell me because I joined the CAF at 17 as a Pte and that's what you first met me as that you're going to use that because "well I d9nt care who you are now... you're Pte Wannabe. Stop making this difficult...you just want attention."

I mean...I always want attention, but you get my point.

We are in the business of protecting and supporting the minority against the majority. It's in our Ethos. That includes our Trans brother, sisters, and siblings in arms.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Thank you for providing this anecdote, as my experience with my child has been that of Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB) vice Assigned Female At Birth (AFAB).

Put er on my tab, fella.

One of my daughter's friends parents doesn't accept that their kid is trans. They still call them by their birth name and act like it's a phase. It's really heartbreaking because the kid must feel terrible. Mentioned here before I believe, it was interesting when my wife and I dealt with her friend having a sleepover. I initially said no. I wouldn't let my daughter sleep over at males house so why would it be different to let her sleep at her friends house who is transmale?

I personally think someone with XY chromosomes is male and XX is female and that doesn't change but if someone wants to present as whatever then it doesn't hurt me to humor them. I wonder when that statement will brand me as a criminal though.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Put er on my tab, fella.

One of my daughter's friends parents doesn't accept that their kid is trans. They still call them by their birth name and act like it's a phase. It's really heartbreaking because the kid must feel terrible. Mentioned here before I believe, it was interesting when my wife and I dealt with her friend having a sleepover. I initially said no. I wouldn't let my daughter sleep over at males house so why would it be different to let her sleep at her friends house who is transmale?

That's heartbreaking to hear they aren't being supported at home. As for the sleepover thing, did you acquiesce on principle or on parts? The spectrum of sexuality is not as rigid as it was when most of us were growing up. We still found a way to figure out what it was like to kiss and make out in spite of our parent's rules and guidance.

Nature....uh...finds a way.

I personally think someone with XY chromosomes is male and XX is female and that doesn't change but if someone wants to present as whatever then it doesn't hurt me to humor them. I wonder when that statement will brand me as a criminal though.

You have a right to your beliefs until they impede on another person's right to life, liberty, and security of the person. As enshrined in our Charter.

Then again, the golden rule of "Don't be an asshole to people about things that cause me no harm" kind of comes into play as well.

 

[Quirky]

personally think someone with XY chromosomes is male and XX is female and that doesn't change but if someone wants to present as whatever then it doesn't hurt me to humor them. I wonder when that statement will brand me as a criminal though.

Problem comes when people demand they be acknowledged as their preferred pronouns, this nonsense is already mandated in our email signatures. We need another world war to sort out this infected western society.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Problem comes when people demand they be acknowledged as their preferred pronouns, this nonsense is already mandated in our email signatures.

Along with the other identifiable parts of your being: like Name, Rank, and unit.

As an IMO, I give less fucks about a simple:

He/Him She/Her They/Them

Than I do the idiotic Spartan quotes or regimental graphics that eat up bandwidth unnecessarily.

We need another world war to sort out this infected western society.

And when that call comes, which side are you on? The one where we all fight for equality, freedom, and justice or the one that promises to make the world better because of "scapegoat" kinds of people? Canada, The CAF, and it's Ethos has made it pretty evident its the latter not the former.

Your post history makes your position pretty clear and makes me wonder where you would have found your beliefs sitting in the last one.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The fuss over pronouns is overwrought, and in the case of third-person pronouns (mostly used when the person is not present) sometimes ridiculous. Regardless, a person still has a name, which can always be used without loss of clarity.

Pronoun acknowledgement is a social status game. People have the right to live approximately as they choose; people don't have a right to conscript others into affirmation games.

 

[Quirky]

The one where we all fight for equality, freedom, and justice or the one that promises to make the world better because of "scapegoat" kinds of people?

Has nothing to do with my post. These gender issues wouldn’t be such a problem if people had actual adversity to deal with. You know people are spoiled when they invent silly issues like this in their heads, thanks to politics, our education system and the media the cancer only grows.

This entire topic in society has turned into a complete circus. No wonder people are starting to turn hostile towards these alphabet groups. It’s not enough to just mind their own business and keep it private, everything needs its own day and/or month. God forbid a rainbow crosswalk gets tire marks on it, the media will be sure to cover it and call it a hate crime. Why is there a rainbow crosswalk to begin with? You’re just fuelling the fire and giving people a reason to lash out. Like Morgan Freeman said about racism, if you want to get rid of it, you stop talking about it.

 

[suffolkowner]

I personally think someone with XY chromosomes is male and XX is female and that doesn't change but if someone wants to present as whatever then it doesn't hurt me to humor them. I wonder when that statement will brand me as a criminal though.

People (animals) are described or defined as male or female phenotypically though as in how they look and function. In general chromotype will match phenotype but in reality sex is determined by gene expression. These need not be in agreement. Trans individuals have added another identifier to consider and that is this concept of self perception. The physiological basis for which is not understood or even known if the conditions are related. Much in biology is multicausal and multivariate

 

[Remius]

Has nothing to do with my post. These gender issues wouldn’t be such a problem if people had actual adversity to deal with. You know people are spoiled when they invent silly issues like this in their heads, thanks to politics, our education system and the media the cancer only grows.

This entire topic in society has turned into a complete circus. No wonder people are starting to turn hostile towards these alphabet groups. It’s not enough to just mind their own business and keep it private, everything needs its own day and/or month. God forbid a rainbow crosswalk gets tire marks on it, the media will be sure to cover it and call it a hate crime. Why is there a rainbow crosswalk to begin with? You’re just fuelling the fire and giving people a reason to lash out. Like Morgan Freeman said about racism, if you want to get rid of it, you stop talking about it.

You really do hate freedom of expression don’t you…

If a rainbow crosswalk or some month is named for something upsets you and makes you lash out then I would suggest that maybe YOU are the spoiled one.

 

[Quirky]

You really do hate freedom of expression don’t you…

If a rainbow crosswalk or some month is named for something upsets you and makes you lash out then I would suggest that maybe YOU are the spoiled one.

It doesn’t upset me, but Christ you’ll hear about it from media and alphabets if they find tire marks on it. Works both ways…why do they care their rainbows are being driven on? Do they hate freedom of expression?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

It doesn’t upset me, but Christ you’ll hear about it from media and alphabets if they find tire marks on it. Works both ways…why do they care their rainbows are being driven on? Do they hate freedom of expression?

Your freedom of expression ends when it infringes on someone else's freedom of expression or right to Life, Liberty, and Security of the person. It's that whole Section 1 preamble of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms folks tend to gloss over when they get called out on their bigotry.

Driving on a rainbow cross walk is not infringing on that expression... no. But the cases of vandalism you're paraphrasing as "tire marks" (they were burnouts, let's be honest here... and the intent was to deface the cross walk) were an infringement and under our laws and Charter, a Hate Crime.

Those same bigots bemoan our society for being too controlling/sensitive when it comes to some things, but then gripe and whinge about other aspects where we aren't libertarian enough. They want both more freedom for the. and less freedom for those they are bigoted against.

My father taught me the only time you look into another person's bowl is to ensure they have enough, not to bitch about who got more. 2SLGBTQIA+ folx aren't taking more freedom or taking it away from you. It's liberty and accomodation, not pie. It's not a finite commodity.

You have the freedom of expression just like anyone else, but that doesn't provide you an exemption from being called out for what you're expressing.

 

[Good2Golf]

My father taught me the only time you look into another person's bowl is to ensure they have enough, not to bitch about who got more. 2SLGBTQIA+ folx aren't taking more freedom or taking it away from you. It's liberty and accomodation, not pie. It's not a finite commodity.

This x 100

 

[mariomike]

My father taught me the only time you look into another person's bowl is to ensure they have enough, not to bitch about who got more.

That is good advice.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't know why the CAF insists on using gendered pronouns.

We all have ranks, last names and last 3 of a service number. There finished.

I had to tell someone recently, don't worry about my gender, you can call me Chief ________ ; that fixes all the ambiguity.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I don't know why the CAF insists on using gendered pronouns.

We all have ranks, last names and last 3 of a service number. There finished.

I had to tell someone recently, don't worry about my gender, you can call me Chief ________ ; that fixes all the ambiguity.

Seeing as it is a Treasury Board Secretariat policy, we are required to follow it, along with all departments within the GoC.

In your case, Chief works for you where people know that is..well...your preferred form of address in correspondence. Seeing "CPO2" in a signature block is also confusing to outsiders (who you are no doubt working with in your role as a G4 Staff).

Additionally, what is the initial form of address when a subordinate is sending me an email? It's not Lt Wannabe, it's ____. If my first name was ambiguous like Taylor, Leigh, or any other name that doesn't tip the hand of my gender expression, it can get awkward and frustrating (I once had a female Adjt who used the first name "Mike" because she preferred it to the I think Ukranian Mikaelhya that was on her birth certificate).

Also, add the fact that our Defence Team includes civilian staff that do not address themselves as "Civ" in everyday conversations, it makes sense.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Seeing as it is a Treasury Board Secretariat policy, we are required to follow it, along with all departments within the GoC.

In your case, Chief works for you where people know that is..well...your preferred form of address in correspondence. Seeing "CPO2" in a signature block is also confusing to outsiders (who you are no doubt working with in your role as a G4 Staff).

Additionally, what is the initial form of address when a subordinate is sending me an email? It's not Lt Wannabe, it's ____. If my first name was ambiguous like Taylor, Leigh, or any other name that doesn't tip the hand of my gender expression, it can get awkward and frustrating (I once had a female Adjt who used the first name "Mike" because she preferred it to the I think Ukranian Mikaelhya that was on her birth certificate).

Also, add the fact that our Defence Team includes civilian staff that do not address themselves as "Civ" in everyday conversations, it makes sense.

Well hold the summary trial and dock my pay.

I always spell out my rank in my signature block. In my profession I deal with outside agencies and players all the time. And its funny, when you put Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class Bloggins on your correspondence, that's how they generally address you. During conversation, I tell them they can call me Chief Bloggings or use my first name.

I am no longer at the CBG HQ, I am at sea again.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Problem comes when people demand they be acknowledged as their preferred pronouns

What, precisely is the problem in calling people they want to be called?

I understand frustration and agree that things have gone overboard when people are being castigated and witch hunted over honest mistakes- when meeting people etc. It happened before with androgynous names, androgynous appearances etc. Correct and move on.

I understand frustration and agree that things have overboard when there are (a tiny tiny) number of people that change their preference on a daily/weekly basis and expect everyone to keep it straight in their head.


But following something as simple as calling someone what they want (or really- not calling them what they don't want) would come under the general guideline of don't be an asshole. Do we really need a global conflict to enable being an asshole in professional settings?

 

[Harris]

Problem comes when people demand they be acknowledged as their preferred pronouns, this nonsense is already mandated in our email signatures. We need another world war to sort out this infected western society.

My understanding of the current Signature Block rules is that the Personal Pronouns line (Line 2) is optional to have, but mandatory to use if listed. A small difference from "...mandated in our email signatures." I personally don't use one, but if someone has listed it, I use it, or if not listed, use they/them and stay away from he/she.
I used to get worked up abut similar things to what you seem to, but I learned many years ago that life is too short, and bitching about things that don't really impact me is tiring. Since I've stopped worrying about the minor things, life has gotten better for me. YMMV.

 

[suffolkowner]

What, precisely is the problem in calling people they want to be called?

I understand frustration and agree that things have gone overboard when people are being castigated and witch hunted over honest mistakes- when meeting people etc. It happened before with androgynous names, androgynous appearances etc. Correct and move on.

I understand frustration and agree that things have overboard when there are (a tiny tiny) number of people that change their preference on a daily/weekly basis and expect everyone to keep it straight in their head.


But following something as simple as calling someone what they want (or really- not calling them what they don't want) would come under the general guideline of don't be an asshole.

Addressing as they prefer is polite. Addressing people as the government prefers is a whole other can of bananas. Military excepted

 

[Quirky]

What, precisely is the problem in calling people they want to be called?

It's impossible to keep up with the growing list of pronouns. It was very simple before this liberal mental health epidemic started - He/Him, She/her. Now it seems like an infinite list depending how that person feels that particular day. If someone wants to be preferred as "they", I'll just laugh, shake my head and walkaway.