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Liberal Minority Government 2019 - ????

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Fishbone Jones

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Nothing is free.

The police are not free.

Firefighters are not free.

Teachers are not free.

The military isn't free.

It's a matter of what a society is willing to pay for.

Vaccines are not free. They cost the government money, our tax dollars. But to you and me, and the general public, they do not cost us money.

Pregnancy tests, if it gives a woman peace, or time to plan, or whatever a woman needs at that time, I don't care, I'm fine with society paying for that. If Jarnhamar is opposed to that, that's on him but I don't see the issue.

So for free rapid testing as a way to avoid societal strife and keep people safe, I'm more than fine with that as well.
So, I pay money, in taxes for vaccines, but I don't pay for vaccines🙄 Is that like trudeau saying he took on all this debt, so I wouldn't have to?🤣 That's some funny shit right there. And people wonder why I'm so sarcastic.😏
 

Altair

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So, I pay money, in taxes for vaccines,

you pay taxes.
but I don't pay for vaccines🙄
your personal funds were unchanged after you got your vaccine, thus you did not directly pay for it.

for example someone who pays no taxes still got a vaccine.
Is that like trudeau saying he took on all this debt, so I wouldn't have to?🤣
The government of Canada is the holder of the debt. You, Fishbone Jones Hopefully did not incur more debt.
That's some funny shit right there. And people wonder why I'm so sarcastic.😏
Original.
 

Fishbone Jones

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I help pay for every benefit I get from the government, including vaccines. Whether those vaccines go to millionaires or illegal aliens. Just because I didn't pay out of pocket at the time, doesn't mean I didn't help pay for it through taxes.Unfortunately, those same taxes go to pay for government incompetence also. I'm not arguing this ridiculous premise anymore. If you're incapable of connecting those dots, I'm not being involved. As to your comment on my comment, I stole it from you to show the ridiculousness of this discussion.
 

Remius

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Welcome to being a citizen of a country. Taxes are a reality. How they are used to benefit the population is another issue but I’m glad I won the lottery and living here. First world problems indeed.
 

Altair

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I help pay for every benefit I get from the government, including vaccines. Whether those vaccines go to millionaires or illegal aliens. Just because I didn't pay out of pocket at the time, doesn't mean I didn't help pay for it through taxes.
You pay taxes regardless of what is bought with it. If they didn't buy vaccines....your taxes are the same. If they buy vaccines...your taxes are the same. You pay your taxes, and the government does what it does with it, but to say you indirectly bought something....no.
Unfortunately, those same taxes go to pay for government incompetence also. I'm not arguing this ridiculous premise anymore. If you're incapable of connecting those dots, I'm not being involved.
You do have a habit of taking your ball and going home.
As to your comment on my comment, I stole it from you to show the ridiculousness of this discussion.
It was a great comment on my part, I am flattered you stole it.
 

Ostrozac

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State interference with bodily integrity and serious state-imposed psychological stress, at least in the criminal law context, constitutes a breach of security of the person.
There is nothing in the Emergencies Act that would allow for mandatory immunization at the federal level. So that wouldn’t be an option Canada wide.

The same wouldn’t necessarily be true at the provincial level. Quebec’s Public Health Act, for example, does contain a provision for compulsory vaccination of up to the entire population of the province, but I don’t believe it’s ever been used or tested in court.
 

Weinie

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you pay taxes.

your personal funds were unchanged after you got your vaccine, thus you did not directly pay for it.

for example someone who pays no taxes still got a vaccine.

The government of Canada is the holder of the debt. You, Fishbone Jones Hopefully did not incur more debt.

Original.

The gov't of Canada is able to incur debt through their ability to raise funds to offset that debt. That offset is primarily through taxes, whether corporate or individual. To state that the GOC debt is not impacting Fishbone Jones, or you and I, is disingenuous. At the end of the day, we (and generations to come) will all face a tax hike as a consequence of increased GoC spending.
 

GR66

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The gov't of Canada is able to incur debt through their ability to raise funds to offset that debt. That offset is primarily through taxes, whether corporate or individual. To state that the GOC debt is not impacting Fishbone Jones, or you and I, is disingenuous. At the end of the day, we (and generations to come) will all face a tax hike as a consequence of increased GoC spending.
Don't worry....the deficit will take care of itself!

:cool:
 

Jarnhamar

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I'll pay 70% taxes if it means conservatives don't get elected and ban abortions!
 

Altair

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The gov't of Canada is able to incur debt through their ability to raise funds to offset that debt. That offset is primarily through taxes, whether corporate or individual. To state that the GOC debt is not impacting Fishbone Jones, or you and I, is disingenuous. At the end of the day, we (and generations to come) will all face a tax hike as a consequence of increased GoC spending.
You know this is not true.

Governments are able to offset debt burden by GDP growth. If the debt is growing 2 percent and the economy is growing 5 percent, you know that the debt burden goes down as a result. One can grow their way out of debt, however it does take discipline to make sure your debt isn't growing faster than your GDP.

Don't worry....the deficit will take care of itself!

:cool:
See, GR66 gets it.
 

Weinie

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You know this is not true.

Governments are able to offset debt burden by GDP growth. If the debt is growing 2 percent and the economy is growing 5 percent, you know that the debt burden goes down as a result. One can grow their way out of debt, however it does take discipline to make sure your debt isn't growing faster than your GDP.


See, GR66 gets it.

You cannot grow your way out of a 650 billion dollar debt without reducing spending. Only an idiot would suggest that.

If the economy grows by 5 percent, then the levee/aggregate of taxes increases proportionally, based on that growth, meaning more money into gov't coffers. They rarely consider debt burden, it actually encourages the gov't to increase spending, and debt, to garner votes.
 

Altair

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You cannot grow your way out of a 650 billion dollar debt without reducing spending. Only an idiot would suggest that.
I see what you mean, but...wait...you posted more, let me read that first.
If the economy grows by 5 percent, then the levee/aggregate of taxes increases proportionally, based on that growth, meaning more money into gov't coffers. They rarely consider debt burden, it actually encourages the gov't to increase spending, and debt, to garner votes.
Oh, so you can grow out of debt. Its just that governments are not disciplined enough to do so. Well, now that's different. It almost sounds like...
Governments are able to offset debt burden by GDP growth. If the debt is growing 2 percent and the economy is growing 5 percent, you know that the debt burden goes down as a result. One can grow their way out of debt, however it does take discipline to make sure your debt isn't growing faster than your GDP.
How about that?
 

hattrick72

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You know this is not true.

Governments are able to offset debt burden by GDP growth. If the debt is growing 2 percent and the economy is growing 5 percent, you know that the debt burden goes down as a result. One can grow their way out of debt, however it does take discipline to make sure your debt isn't growing faster than your GDP.


See, GR66 gets it.
GDP is calculated three ways and they should all come to the same answer.

The first is what you are alluding to, but one of the factors is the cost of the material to create the goods. This can be eroded by inflation and can drop the gdp as a result.

The second way is based on incomes.

The third way is based on goods created compared to what can be consumed by the population and incomes.

Doesn't matter what way you measure it, they should come to the same answer. OECD utilizes the first method.

The government's ability to print money to create the debt and release it into the economy will cause inflation. If inflation goes too high, what we have/get paid is less. There is a point where pensions like ours will become insolvent. The members that pay in can't pay in enough to maintain payments out to match indexed inflation. They either close the fund or stop indexing. Both are catastrophic to the pensioner in a high inflation environment. Workers have the opportunity for their wages to catch up provided there isn't hyper inflation.

Anyways, we shouldn't be comfortable with the amount of debt we added. I believe we needed to react, but not to that extent. I really liked the cerb and mortgage deferral program. I dislike the cews.

Anyways, what is fine is done, but we need to figure out how much of our future was taken away and find a way to replace it so Canada and it's pensioners can stay solvent
 

Weinie

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Phuch
I see what you mean, but...wait...you posted more, let me read that first.

Oh, so you can grow out of debt. Its just that governments are not disciplined enough to do so. Well, now that's different. It almost sounds like...

How about that?
Parse the message I posted as much as you want. If you want to live in Bizarro world, where everything LPC decision-wise is catechism, go for it. I have, as you may have noticed, a different Canada view. But you do you.
 

MilEME09

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I'll pay 70% taxes if it means conservatives don't get elected and ban abortions!
Cause they banned abortions last time they were in power with a majority right? It is never going to happen no matter how much the religious fringe of the party or the liberal attack ad machine may want it.
 

Altair

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GDP is calculated three ways and they should all come to the same answer.
Let me just say, I really appreciate someone who takes their time and writes a well reasoned argument or point. Much better than the talking points or gotchas that are all too common on the internet today.
The first is what you are alluding to, but one of the factors is the cost of the material to create the goods. This can be eroded by inflation and can drop the gdp as a result.
Very true.
The second way is based on incomes.

The third way is based on goods created compared to what can be consumed by the population and incomes.
Agreed.
Doesn't matter what way you measure it, they should come to the same answer. OECD utilizes the first method.
Most metrics come to a very similar number.
The government's ability to print money to create the debt and release it into the economy will cause inflation. If inflation goes too high, what we have/get paid is less. There is a point where pensions like ours will become insolvent. The members that pay in can't pay in enough to maintain payments out to match indexed inflation. They either close the fund or stop indexing. Both are catastrophic to the pensioner in a high inflation environment. Workers have the opportunity for their wages to catch up provided there isn't hyper inflation.
This is where we are going to stop agreeing. Printing money doesn't necessarily cause inflation. Case in point, since 2010, the money supply has never been higher. Inflation didn't skyrocket. In the past year, the money supply globally has skyrocketed, inflation to date has not followed the same trajectory.

Why is that right now? Because there is also massive downwards pressure on prices due to recessions. Lower wages, lower spending, large stockpiles of inventory which needs to be sold at a discount, there are factors that counter the effect of printing all this money.

In terms of the Canadian dollar, which can crater if too much is printed, remember, currencies are judged off of each other, based on the underlying economy they represent, interest rates, and scarcity. Interest rates being low, and less scarcity should mean it would be falling, but it isn't. Why? Because currencies are judged off of each other, and every other major currency is doing the same thing. The EURO, the USD, everyone is just printing money like mad right now.
Anyways, we shouldn't be comfortable with the amount of debt we added. I believe we needed to react, but not to that extent. I really liked the cerb and mortgage deferral program. I dislike the cews.
No one should be happy with it, but at the end of this its better that the economy doesn't collapse.
Anyways, what is fine is done, but we need to figure out how much of our future was taken away and find a way to replace it so Canada and it's pensioners can stay solvent
So long as inflation is under control and debt spending isn't insane Canada should be okay. We will need a roadmap to get back on track though, but its hard to do so when still in the crisis that is causing the spending in the first place.
 

Altair

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Phuch
Parse the message I posted as much as you want. If you want to live in Bizarro world, where everything LPC decision-wise is catechism, go for it. I have, as you may have noticed, a different Canada view. But you do you.
You may want to extend your worldview mate.

UK is having massive spending.

France is having massive spending.

Italy is having massive spending.

The USA is having massive spending. (two different administrations as well)

Germany is having massive spending.

Japan is having massive spending.

Spain is having massive spending.

Do I need to go on?

If there is a reckoning coming because of massive spending, it will hit all countries, which means two things.

One, it doesn't matter if Canada spent or not, because if the aforementioned nations are in a economic world of hurt because of massive spending, the ensuing global economic depression would hammer Canada anyways.

And two, if it doesn't, then Canada would be one of the few nations not to engage in economy saving stimulus and as a result everyone else has healthy economies and a post pandemic economic rebound, and Canada is a economic smoking crater in the ground.

And I don't think its a LPC versus CPC thing either. The CPC in 2008 showed that they would open the financial taps to save the economy (or their electoral prospects). The CPC voted for these measures as well, so they own it too. So saying its just the LPC who would do this is disingenuous and you should know that.
 
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