Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???

[brihard]

A risk of increased access to confidential data is that eventually some government may want to compile dossiers using AI-enabled tools to scrape and synthesize publicly accessible anonymous or pseudonymous content, and use access powers to de-anonymize it. Those who openly self-attribute obviously aren't concerned, but there certainly are Canadians who deem themselves subversive in some sense who feel otherwise. This risk probably already exists in illiberal countries.

Prudence demands not merely considering the ideal uses of a tool, but what its potential abuses are. There have to be some hard stops.

"It can't happen here."

So, when we get judicial authorizations (Production Orders, generally) to hand over data or information, we have to do so pretty precisely. Recall that we have to articulate grounds to suspect or believe a particular criminal offence has been or will be committed, and that the documents or data sought will specifically afford evidence of that. These judicial authorizations aren’t big data vacuums where we can indiscriminately harvest, say, subscriber or bank data for a whole bunch of people. We’re going to have an identifiable offence (so that rules out ‘merely shameful personal habits’ that are not a crime), and will seek documents or data very discriminatory, based on specific identifiable individuals, or account numbers, or other specific unique identifiers. So the data gathering is quite self-limiting in that regard. We’re also implicitly limited by section 8 in how we can use information gathered under the auspices of one investigation for other purposes.

When we receive results from such orders, they get added to the individual criminal investigation, which, while held on one or another records management system, doesn’t mean they’re all ingested into some comprehensive database.

None of the new provisions in C-2 give us new access to data we couldn’t previously get. It just clarifies, modernizes, and/or simplifies some of the processes, adjusts the threshold in the case of subscriber data, and should speed the process up somewhat. There’s some streamlined data seizure authority particularly in the case of an investigative exigency but we’ll need to be prepared to defend it in court. It’s also still not completely new; we could do it already via an exigent warrantless physical search and systems access, so actually by creating an exigent data production provision where the service providers will pick it out and provide it for us, it actually should serve to reduce inadvertent overexposure of private data to law enforcement in the worst case scenario.

Anyway, my two cents. I obviously have my bias, but it’s very grounded in reality at the coal face.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Anyway, my two cents. I obviously have my bias, but it’s very grounded in reality at the coal face.

I have few misgivings about the way things are. I have misgivings about potential. Representations of the way things are do not address potential abuses. We ought to place certain kinds of powers outside the lawful reach of government, preferably in the constitution. Exigencies of the present do not always need to be accommodated.

 

[brihard]

I have few misgivings about the way things are. I have misgivings about potential. Representations of the way things are do not address potential abuses. We ought to place certain kinds of powers outside the lawful reach of government, preferably in the constitution. Exigencies of the present do not always need to be accommodated.

There are constitutional protections via the charter that provide a framework for all of this to be tested and challenged.

What specific powers are you seeing proposed that you feel should be more restricted? I’m happy to torture test specific circumstances against the law as-is and as-proposed.

 

[Brad Sallows]

There are constitutional protections via the charter that provide a framework for all of this to be tested and challenged.

What specific powers are you seeing proposed that you feel should be more restricted? I’m happy to torture test specific circumstances against the law as-is and as-proposed.

No authority whatsoever to compel providers to release data not publicly available or otherwise customarily considered confidential, and absolute requirement for providers to safeguard that data. No packet sniffing or other interception, even though transmissions are arguably some kind of publicly available. Probably more; my wish-list probably requires stepping back from current law. Anything of that nature government wants, it should have to do outside the protection of law, or by confiscation of physical assets belonging to targets.

I can suppose the kinds of disadvantages that would impose upon investigators and the corresponding advantages conferred on terrorists and ordinary criminals, but the proven inability or unwillingness of guardians to guard themselves suggests the price is acceptable. There will always be someone who can be suborned; there will always be someone who wants to punish people over political disagreements. Governments and their employees have behaved poorly when granted surveillance powers, and it's foolish to grant them more powerful ones.

 

[brihard]

No authority whatsoever to compel providers to release data not publicly available or otherwise customarily considered confidential, and absolute requirement for providers to safeguard that data. No packet sniffing or other interception, even though transmissions are arguably some kind of publicly available. Probably more; my wish-list probably requires stepping back from current law. Anything of that nature government wants, it should have to do outside the protection of law, or by confiscation of physical assets belonging to targets.

I can suppose the kinds of disadvantages that would impose upon investigators and the corresponding advantages conferred on terrorists and ordinary criminals, but the proven inability or unwillingness of guardians to guard themselves suggests the price is acceptable. There will always be someone who can be suborned; there will always be someone who wants to punish people over political disagreements. Governments and their employees have behaved poorly when granted surveillance powers, and it's foolish to grant them more powerful ones.

…Sorry, I want to be really sure I’m understanding you correctly. You’re saying you don’t want any law enforcement or peace officers or security intelligence authorities to apply to the court for an order or warrant, to then be able to lawfully go to an internet or communications service provider and compel disclosure of customer records, or to lawfully intercept any communication or transmission? The only way we should be able to get any of that data is by examining physical devices ‘confiscated’ from targets? I feel like there’s gotta be a miscommunication between what you’ve said and what I’ve read.

And what does “outside the protection of law” mean?

 

[Brad Sallows]

…Sorry, I want to be really sure I’m understanding you correctly. You’re saying you don’t want any law enforcement or peace officers or security intelligence authorities to apply to the court for an order or warrant, to then be able to lawfully go to an internet or communications service provider and compel disclosure of customer records, or to lawfully intercept any communication or transmission? The only way we should be able to get any of that data is by examining physical devices ‘confiscated’ from targets? I feel like there’s gotta be a miscommunication between what you’ve said and what I’ve read.

And what does “outside the protection of law” mean?

My position is that extreme. I anticipate a serious threat to liberty, and want to eliminate it before it can take root. The cost of potential abuse outweighs the cost of inconvenience (risks). Electronic surveillance has become too powerful, compared to everything that went before. Up to a few months ago, I didn't hold this position. After considering the potential of AI to synthesize information, I changed it. AI will deliver an unprecedented - if not ultimate - tool for totalitarian police state surveillance into our hands, and we either disallow the means or rely on the discretion of judges, prosecutors, and police. It's going to be bad enough when people figure out what is possible with feeds from ordinary security cameras, and I have already disliked the widespread use of cameras for years.

I don't trust savvy players to not hoodwink judges. I don't trust federal employees to never sell data. I don't trust people with access to the tools to never exploit information for private gain or to settle political scores. I know of people who comb through customer information. I know police who bragged that they can find an excuse to pull over anyone; I don't know whether that's actually possible, but it was the attitude that froze me, not the practicality. Then there are the ones who think they deserve "professional courtesy" from other police. Then there are the ones in the news for various breaches of conduct and abuses. The few are not the barrel, but the few are dangerous. The human element is weak, and cannot be depended upon.

"Outside the protection of law" means black ops.

 

[brihard]

My position is that extreme. I anticipate a serious threat to liberty, and want to eliminate it before it can take root. The cost of potential abuse outweighs the cost of inconvenience (risks). Electronic surveillance has become too powerful, compared to everything that went before. Up to a few months ago, I didn't hold this position. After considering the potential of AI to synthesize information, I changed it. AI will deliver an unprecedented - if not ultimate - tool for totalitarian police state surveillance into our hands, and we either disallow the means or rely on the discretion of judges, prosecutors, and police. It's going to be bad enough when people figure out what is possible with feeds from ordinary security cameras, and I have already disliked the widespread use of cameras for years.

I don't trust savvy players to not hoodwink judges. I don't trust federal employees to never sell data. I don't trust people with access to the tools to never exploit information for private gain or to settle political scores. I know of people who comb through customer information. I know police who bragged that they can find an excuse to pull over anyone; I don't know whether that's actually possible, but it was the attitude that froze me, not the practicality. Then there are the ones who think they deserve "professional courtesy" from other police. Then there are the ones in the news for various breaches of conduct and abuses. The few are not the barrel, but the few are dangerous. The human element is weak, and cannot be depended upon.

"Outside the protection of law" means black ops.

Ok. That would be an absolutely massive erasure of existing law, and your only proposed solution - ‘black ops’ would ironically remove the very considerable safeguards that are in place over all of it.

I’m just gonna leave it at that, this is too far from reality to engage with.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I agree with what Mr. Soudas has written here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1932882799293575246

Mr. M. Sabia as Clerk of the Privy Council is a very welcome game changer. He’s a no-nonsense businessman, and he is relentless in pursing his objectives. Most federal public servants are going to learn quickly to work at his speed + standards of excellence or find another rock and roll band.

I am liking a lot of what I’m seeing from Carney in a minority government. He must be kept to a minority in order to sustain the pace of change required. I suspect many of his ministers will quit.

 

[dapaterson]

Expect a lot of DMs to suddenly decide to spend more time with their families.

 

[ArmyRick]

I agree with what Mr. Soudas has written here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1932882799293575246

Mr. M. Sabia as Clerk of the Privy Council is a very welcome game changer. He’s a no-nonsense businessman, and he is relentless in pursing his objectives. Most federal public servants are going to learn quickly to work at his speed + standards of excellence or find another rock and roll band.

I am liking a lot of what I’m seeing from Carney in a minority government. He must be kept to a minority in order to sustain the pace of change required. I suspect many of his ministers will quit.

Or Carney will get fed up and fire a few. The new immigration minister does not do herself any favours and the Minister of Public safety better learn what a firearm is and how those laws apply. I don't think Carney will suffer fools.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Expect a lot of DMs to suddenly decide to spend more time with their families.

He’ll make the decision for them.

 

[dapaterson]

I suspect many of his ministers will quit.

To the contrary, I think he has done a reasonably good job of selecting ministers who will drive hard.

It's DMs and ADMs who will rediscover their love of their families.

 

[ArmyRick]

Yes I still support conservatives. However I much appreciate Mark Carney at the helm of the ship vs Justin Trudeau.

Mark seems to have international respect (Justin had none)
he seems much more serious on defence
He seems to be working on pulling the provinces together (Eby, get your head out of the sand)
He is making some serious moves, I really want to see how these unfold.

I still think once he gets more comfortable and established in his position, I suspect many Trudeau acolytes will get thrown out the door. As they should. Mark reminds me of a Paul Martin kind of Liberal. I almost voted for the Martin Liberals back in '04.

I also suspect Carney is "easing" Left leaning Canadians into the idea of a Pipeline (or or three), especially when you can use the "Trump" factor.

Lets see how this story unfolds.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Yes I still support conservatives. However I much appreciate Mark Carney at the helm of the ship vs Justin Trudeau.

Mark seems to have international respect (Justin had none)
he seems much more serious on defence
He seems to be working on pulling the provinces together (Eby, get your head out of the sand)
He is making some serious moves, I really want to see how these unfold.

I still think once he gets more comfortable and established in his position, I suspect many Trudeau acolytes will get thrown out the door. As they should. Mark reminds me of a Paul Martin kind of Liberal. I almost voted for the Martin Liberals back in '04.

I also suspect Carney is "easing" Left leaning Canadians into the idea of a Pipeline (or or three), especially when you can use the "Trump" factor.

Let’s see how this story unfolds.

Spot on

 

[RangerRay]

Yes I still support conservatives. However I much appreciate Mark Carney at the helm of the ship vs Justin Trudeau.

Mark seems to have international respect (Justin had none)
he seems much more serious on defence
He seems to be working on pulling the provinces together (Eby, get your head out of the sand)
He is making some serious moves, I really want to see how these unfold.

I still think once he gets more comfortable and established in his position, I suspect many Trudeau acolytes will get thrown out the door. As they should. Mark reminds me of a Paul Martin kind of Liberal. I almost voted for the Martin Liberals back in '04.

I also suspect Carney is "easing" Left leaning Canadians into the idea of a Pipeline (or or three), especially when you can use the "Trump" factor.

Lets see how this story unfolds.

If things continue in the direction we are seeing, I can see the NDP doing better next election. I think many were so shit scared of Poilievre they thought Carney was a garden variety Liberal.

I think Carney is a garden variety Liberal…the Variety that was around prior to PET.

Although I’m cautiously optimistic and like mostly what I see, I’m still bracing for the other shoe to drop.

 

[brihard]

If things continue in the direction we are seeing, I can see the NDP doing better next election. I think many were so shit scared of Poilievre they thought Carney was a garden variety Liberal.

I think Carney is a garden variety Liberal…the Variety that was around prior to PET.

Although I’m cautiously optimistic and like mostly what I see, I’m still bracing for the other shoe to drop.

Yes- NDP will pick up some of the left from this… But if Carney governs like this for a couple years, he’ll eat a lot of the lunch of whoever’s leading the Conservatives into the next election… And I’m growing a bit more doubtful that that will be Poilievre. I think if Carney stays on this course, the CPC may realize they need a very different kind of leader to take him on. I’m not sure what that looks like.

 

[Czech_pivo]

If things continue in the direction we are seeing, I can see the NDP doing better next election. I think many were so shit scared of Poilievre they thought Carney was a garden variety Liberal.

I think Carney is a garden variety Liberal…the Variety that was around prior to PET.

Although I’m cautiously optimistic and like mostly what I see, I’m still bracing for the other shoe to drop.

I think Carney has the chance to be ‘one of the great ones’ if - if her can pull it all off over the next 4-6yrs.

 

[ArmyRick]

I think Carney has the chance to be ‘one of the great ones’ if - if her can pull it all off over the next 4-6yrs.

He tosses some of the trash overboard and the man can have smooth sailing for 2-4 years.

 

[ArmyRick]

I think Carney is a garden variety Liberal…the Variety that was around prior to PET

Like the kind of old school Liberals that built the Avro Arrow?

 

[RangerRay]

Like the kind of old school Liberals that built the Avro Arrow?

Depends if you think the Arrow was one of the greatest achievements in aerospace, or one of the greatest boondoggles…