Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???

[Maxman1]

This is just like the Arrow all over again. A plane that won't fit our needs, will cost far more than promised, will be completely obsolete within a decade, yet people have gotten this romantic fantasy about it.

Saab's offers are ridiculous and will never pay off. Their plane lost our competition, twice, and every other competition against the F-35.

 

[Altair]

This is just like the Arrow all over again. A plane that won't fit our needs, will cost far more than promised, will be completely obsolete within a decade, yet people have gotten this romantic fantasy about it.

Saab's offers are ridiculous and will never pay off. Their plane lost our competition, twice, and every other competition against the F-35.

SAAB has lost every competition vs the f35.

So has Dassault.

So has Airbus, BAE Systems, and Leonardo.

So has Boeing.

All very capable fighter jet manufacturers and these jets are in service all around the world, including with NATO allies, many of whom run mixed fleets, including the USA of all places.

The sky isn't falling.

 

[Cloud Cover]

As long as the Gripen doesn’t have to go up against an F35, F15X, F18E/F, etc. it should be fine. As pointed out above, we need Lambos and F150’s. Theres room for both.
I’d really like to see this country take back what has been lost on the factory floor, drawing rooms and innovation side of the house.

 

[Altair]

As long as the Gripen doesn’t have to go up against an F35, F15X, F18E/F, etc. it should be fine. As pointed out above, we need Lambos and F150’s. Theres room for both.
I’d really like to see this country take back what has been lost on the factory floor, drawing rooms and innovation side of the house.

I honestly don't get the consternation.

USA is going to be running the super hornets and f16s into the 2050s.

France will be running the Rafale into the 2040s.

The UK, Italy and Germany will be running the Eurofighter into the 2050s.

Will the Gripen drop off massively compared to other 4.5 gen fighters? Unlikely.

Will this get our foot in the door when SAAB and Europe start on 6th gen fighters? Definitely.

 

[Cloud Cover]

We are saying the same thing except I think the SaaB deal should be taken up as a long term industry re-birth (Gripen to 6th Gen) and the full order of 88 F 35 to bridge the more realistic 10-20 year gap as we get our house in order. As I wrote above, in this country getting something done in 30-40 years is the standard. A 25% improvement is still more than 2 decades.

Second, it’s not the case the Gripen needs to outperform the F35, they need to complement each other by smartly assigning workload. Likely there are missions sets for fighter bombers that an F35 shouldn’t have its time wasted on. There are other missions that only the F35 can perform and give the pilot a reasonable chance to be successful and survive where a Gripen might not.
Israel operates 3 different front line fighters and they are not all equal to each other in tasks. I’m sure the RCAF recognizes that even if the government(s) and critics don’t want to hear it.

 

[Maxman1]

SAAB has lost every competition vs the f35.

So has Dassault.

So has Airbus, BAE Systems, and Leonardo.

So has Boeing.

All very capable fighter jet manufacturers and these jets are in service all around the world, including with NATO allies, many of whom run mixed fleets, including the USA of all places.

The sky isn't falling.

Then why are we considering buying the jet that failed our competition. Twice.

The Gripen was designed around domestic operations in Sweden with export as an afterthought. That's why Sweden is the only western nation to use it.

I honestly don't get the consternation.

USA is going to be running the super hornets and f16s into the 2050s.

France will be running the Rafale into the 2040s.

The UK, Italy and Germany will be running the Eurofighter into the 2050s.

Will the Gripen drop off massively compared to other 4.5 gen fighters? Unlikely.

Will this get our foot in the door when SAAB and Europe start on 6th gen fighters? Definitely.

Difference is, they aren't buying new ones. The last F-16 was delivered to the USAF in 2005. Super Hornet production is ending very soon. British Typhoon production ended this July because of lack of orders.

They're going to keep operating those planes because it's legacy equipment that's still viable. Just like we're going to keep running the Hornets for a few years after the new jets come online, although probably not as long as we ran the CF-5s when we got the Hornets.

We are saying the same thing except I think the SaaB deal should be taken up as a long term industry re-birth (Gripen to 6th Gen) and the full order of 88 F 35 to bridge the more realistic 10-20 year gap as we get our house in order. As I wrote above, in this country getting something done in 30-40 years is the standard. A 25% improvement is still more than 2 decades.

Second, it’s not the case the Gripen needs to outperform the F35, they need to complement each other by smartly assigning workload. Likely there are missions sets for fighter bombers that an F35 shouldn’t have its time wasted on. There are other missions that only the F35 can perform and give the pilot a reasonable chance to be successful and survive where a Gripen might not.
Israel operates 3 different front line fighters and they are not all equal to each other in tasks. I’m sure the RCAF recognizes that even if the government(s) and critics don’t want to hear it.

Saab is obviously desperate for a reason.

If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Saab is they're promising the moon and their history of deliveries is very poor. They're even flip-flopping on whether we actually need to buy any Gripens for them start up production here.

For a simple bomb truck, there are better options.

 

[Altair]

Then why are we considering buying the jet that failed our competition. Twice.

If nations only bought the jet that has so far won every competition, the enter world would only fly F35s.

Yet, as already stated, many nations have mixed fleets. We would simply be yet another nation with a mixed fleet.

The Gripen was designed around domestic operations in Sweden with export as an afterthought. That's why Sweden is the only western nation to use it.

Nice to know the Czech republic and and Hungary are not "western nations"

Difference is, they aren't buying new ones. The last F-16 was delivered to the USAF in 2005. Super Hornet production is ending very soon. British Typhoon production ended this July because of lack of orders.

And the Germans ordered more. Spain ordered more. Italy ordered more.

All likely to be run into the 2050s.

So this woe is Canada for having a 4.5 gen fighter doesn't really hold water. Many nations will be holding on to their 4.5 gen aircraft for the next 25 years.

Saab is obviously desperate for a reason.

If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Saab is they're promising the moon and their history of deliveries is very poor.

Other than Brazil, who has been a basket case, so the problems are on the Latin American side, not the Nordic side, how has their history of deliveries been very poor?

They're even flip-flopping on whether we actually need to buy any Gripens for them start up production here.

For a simple bomb truck, there are better options.

Sure, if they are willing to set up shop, do technology transfers and give us a foot in the door for Europes next 6 gen fighter, then they should be in the conversation.

Care to name them?

 

[Maxman1]

Yet, as already stated, many nations have mixed fleets. We would simply be yet another nation with a mixed fleet.

We don't have enough manpower and resources to start up two fleets. We just don't.

If we go pure F-35, it's still going to be chaos for the next few years, F-35+Gripen will be a logistical nightmare. And remember, those other nations adopted the F-35 in addition to an existing fleet, they didn't start operating two fleets simultaneously overnight.

I know a mixed fleet sounds good on paper, but in practice it's not that easy. It will take a long time for us to recover to the point where two fleets would be feasible.

Nice to know the Czech republic and and Hungary are not "western nations"

I was referring specifically to the Gripen E, since that is what is being offered to us, not the C/D. But in their cases, they both lease them from Sweden, with the Czech Republic's lease in particular set to end once enough F-35s are delivered.

You are aware the C/D and E/F are different models, right?

Other than Brazil, who has been a basket case, so the problems are on the Latin American side, not the Nordic side, how has their history of deliveries been very poor?

We aren't going to do better than Brazil. It's taken six years to get a SAR plane operational, it took 14 years to fix a submarine. There is no way we will have a factory set up, 10,000 aerospace workers trained, and producing planes in three years.

Even Sweden only recently took delivery of its first Gripen E earlier this year, nine years after ordering it.

 

[Altair]

We don't have enough manpower and resources to start up two fleets. We just don't.

If we go pure F-35, it's still going to be chaos for the next few years, F-35+Gripen will be a logistical nightmare. And remember, those other nations adopted the F-35 in addition to an existing fleet, they didn't start operating two fleets simultaneously overnight.

I know a mixed fleet sounds good on paper, but in practice it's not that easy. It will take a long time for us to recover to the point where two fleets would be feasible.

I don't imagine it would be easy.

Clearly on of the things Ottawa will be considering.

I was referring specifically to the Gripen E, since that is what is being offered to us, not the C/D. But in their cases, they both lease them from Sweden, with the Czech Republic's lease in particular set to end once enough F-35s are delivered.

You are aware the C/D and E/F are different models, right?

You said Gripen. You didn't specify the E/F

We aren't going to do better than Brazil. It's taken six years to get a SAR plane operational, it took 14 years to fix a submarine. There is no way we will have a factory set up, 10,000 aerospace workers trained, and producing planes in three years.

3 years? No. I think they said Canada could be receiving its first jets in 3 years. I imagine getting a facility and workers trained would take more time than that.

Even Sweden only recently took delivery of its first Gripen E earlier this year, nine years after ordering it.

Is this not because it only produces 15 or so a year and prioritized exports to Brazil and less because they failed to deliver to their domestic order?

 

[ArmyRick]

Back to regular politics. Here is some "far right, rage baiting spamming" or showing an honest criticism of the government (depends on your views).

Marc-Andre Blanchard (PMO) does a piss poor job trying to run cover for Michael Sabia )Carney's right hand man in the PMO)

 

[ArmyRick]

Shall I bring up the $4.23 Billion being cut from VAC in the next four years? On whos back will they save that money? The vets or the people working VAC? Which BTW is glacially slow as it is.

 

[Remius]

Shall I bring up the $4.23 Billion being cut from VAC in the next four years? On whos back will they save that money? The vets or the people working VAC? Which BTW is glacially slow as it is.

That what a 15% government efficiency exercise across the board looks like. If people want smaller government that’s what happens.

 

[ArmyRick]

That what a 15% government efficiency exercise across the board looks like. If people want smaller government that’s what happens.

Or we could focus cutting foreign to every climate scam going, or cut foreign spending period.
No more money wasted on "climate anything" here at home.
PMMC could try more zoom meetings and fewer lane rides.
I will come back with a longer list...