Liberals announce $1.24B sole-sourced deal to upgrade search and rescue helicopter fleet

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ch-149-cormorant-helicopters-search-rescue-1.6090353

While not saying how much the plan would cost, sky high by DND standards must be really high.

 

[Mick]

To circle back to the original comment about e-charts and navigation - electronic charts displayed on tablets (and in many cases multi-function displays built into an aircraft's instrument panel) will often depict the aircraft's position directly onto the chart. As SSM indicated, this is great for enhancing situational awareness, but lacks the accuracy and integrity required for precise navigation. The "not be used for navigation" really just address that fact.

 

[Good2Golf]

Yup, you follow the indications of the certified primary (and if applicable, secondary) flight instruments/primary flying display. An aircraft’s installed and certified flight management system may also show an overheard plan view of an approach, as an EFB might, but an instrument departure, airways routing and landing approach must be conducted as the aircraft certification specifies. Interestingly, some EFBs display the very same map as the aircraft’s own flight management system does, but the tablet’s integral GPS is not a P(Y) code (or even an air-spec C(A) code) GNSS receiver and I don’t think the maps are georectified against the datum like the digital maps in the FMS are.

 

[kev994]

While I agreed with y’all’s conclusion that you can’t navigate using the little blue dot, strictly speaking, “not suitable for navigation” means that you can’t use the chart at all to navigate, and that’s not true for EFBs. You can use the EFB as a replacement for paper charts, you just can’t rely on the iPad’s ‘ownship.’

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

While I agreed with y’all’s conclusion that you can’t navigate using the little blue dot, strictly speaking, “not suitable for navigation” means that you can’t use the chart at all to navigate, and that’s not true for EFBs. You can use the EFB as a replacement for paper charts, you just can’t rely on the iPad’s ‘ownship.’

We also use electronic charts on Ships. The rules for aviation and the maritime world seem remarkably similar.

For us, you need to confirm your position every time you take the reigns via sensor fix. We also require Radar Image Overlay to be able to be considered navigationally safe.

Loss of RIO, GPS, etc = Navigationally Unsafe and you need to establish a visual fixing routine which for coastal navigation is 15 min and pilotage is 5 min.

We also follow a track plan which is input in to the electronic chart with the route being scanned.

 

[SupersonicMax]

While I agreed with y’all’s conclusion that you can’t navigate using the little blue dot, strictly speaking, “not suitable for navigation” means that you can’t use the chart at all to navigate, and that’s not true for EFBs. You can use the EFB as a replacement for paper charts, you just can’t rely on the iPad’s ‘ownship.’

I am pretty sure (but I don’t have them in front of me to confirm) that SPFPs and OACs for Tablets state that ownship position can’t be used for navigation, not the chart itself.

 

[FSTO]

Navigationally Unsafe and you need to establish a visual fixing routine which for coastal navigation is 15 min and pilotage is 5 min.

Hmm, I wonder how well that is being done now. Could today's NAVO's even maintain that routine?

MARS IV we were required to maintain a 5 min routine as we roared around the Gulf Islands at 15 to 20 knots in the old steamers.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Hmm, I wonder how well that is being done now. Could today's the NAVO's even maintain that routine?

MARS IV we were required to maintain a 5 min routine as we roared around the Gulf Islands at 15 to 20 knots in the old steamers.

They talk a big game but very doubtful. A few could but many couldn't I'm willing to bet.

We don't even really make use of the full capabilities of ECPINS either though, particularly in using it as an aide on actual operations.

I mean.... I could be persuaded to give deploying NWOs a crash course on how to maximize use of ECPINS for Force Protection and on Maritime Interdiction Operations but the RCN would need to pay me a consulting fee

None of those skills are in the books or what is being taught by Sea Training, I developed the process by playing with the system and reading the manual in my spare time while overseas

Fun fact: Did you know you can set alert zones for Force Protection on ECPINS to give you an audible alarm any time a vessel enter your designated zone on the system? Very useful if you're Officer of the Watch and conducting a high risk transit through lets say.... the Strait of Hormuz . All those escalations we talk about.... Warning 1, Warning Shots, etc. ECPINS can be used as a very good aide in that process.

Also, you can use ECPINS to do Relvel on Manually Entered Operator contacts with offsets.

UAV or Helicopter detects a suspect VOI with course, speed and Lat/Long. This information is fed to ops who feeds it to you. Input it on ECPINS then use the system to automatically calculate your course to station or you can also offset + a time when you want to conduct the intercept.

I personally like to intercept either ahead or astern of the VOI and remain just outside visual detection range and also take in to account the winds and seas for a boat launching course. You can, using Height of Eye, treat the horizon like your Line of Departure . Particularly useful for conducting Dawn raiding actions

Also works real well for doing a JFA or getting to your RAS Station . The big moves get done by the system and you can look after the minute details once you get within visual range.

The best and most talented NavO I know is now working for the Company who makes ECPINS, MSI. Another one lost to the private sector

 

[FSTO]

^^
I have a very rudimentary knowledge of the electronic navigation system as it was just being introduced as I left the seagoing Navy. It sounds like it is another piece of kit that the CAF is unwilling or unable to utilize to its fullest.

 

[dimsum]

^^
I have a very rudimentary knowledge of the electronic navigation system as it was just being introduced as I left the seagoing Navy. It sounds like it is another piece of kit that the CAF is unwilling or unable to utilize to its fullest.

I had just finished MARS trg when ECPINS came onboard.

Let's just say that some senior folks were...hesitant to use it as a primary nav method. There was a (short) while where ECPINS was used for confirmation, but paper charts and fixing routine was maintained.

That changed within a couple of years but it wasn't like it was wholeheartedly embraced when it first came out.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

^^
I have a very rudimentary knowledge of the electronic navigation system as it was just being introduced as I left the seagoing Navy. It sounds like it is another piece of kit that the CAF is unwilling or unable to utilize to its fullest.

As I said, none of this is taught to anyone. I got yelled at by Sea Training for not doing Paper Relvel

They didn't like my comment "I guarantee with 100% certainty that the shitty little pencil and paper isn't as accurate as my computer that has a feed from all the Ship's navigation systems"



The Navy is not an adaptive organization, its leadership from what I saw is generally averse to new ideas or improved ways of doing things.

I like winning, especially on operations. Effective use of technology reduces workload and improves speed of decision-making. It is an enabler for us to win.

 

[FSTO]

I had just finished MARS trg when ECPINS came onboard.

Let's just say that some senior folks were...hesitant to use it as a primary nav method. There was a (short) while where ECPINS was used for confirmation, but paper charts and fixing routine was maintained.

That changed within a couple of years but it wasn't like it was wholeheartedly embraced when it first came out.

I'd be lying if I said I whole heartily accepted the idea of transferring totally from paper to electronic. I will always advocate that visual fixing on paper charts should be a skill that the Navy tries to maintain.

Edit to add: Another word for this is hypocrite.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'd be lying if I said I whole heartily accepted the idea of transferring totally from paper to electronic. I will always advocate that visual fixing on paper charts should be a skill that the Navy tries to maintain.

Edit to add: Another word for this is hypocrite.

Sure, as a skill, but we are in the business of committing violent acts on behalf of the Govt and I like being able to do it as quickly and efficiently as possible, while also preserving my own hide . I'm also lazy and want to dedicate as little energy as possible to achieve something i.e. optimize performance

Nobody cares that you hit a sweet paper fix if you can't do a proper TCM, FBA, etc. Unfortunately I think some/many in the RCN care more about the former than the latter.

 

[FSTO]

Sure, as a skill, but we are in the business of committing violent acts on behalf of the Govt and I like being able to do it as quickly and efficiently as possible, while also preserving my own hide . I'm also lazy and want to dedicate as little energy as possible to achieve something i.e. optimize performance

Nobody cares that you hit a sweet paper fix if you can't do a proper TCM, FBA, etc. Unfortunately I think some/many in the RCN care more about the former than the latter.

I guess I'm still remembering watching some new subbies trying to plot a visual fix on the ECPINs. It was bloody painful to watch.

But I also agree that knowing the position of the ship 60ft astern of the actual position isn't that useful and using all the sensors to show your actual position is far better.

One thing that really worried me was the lack of spatial awareness by some folks. One time I stopped an Orca just off the entrance to Montegue Harbour (home to the best Cinnamon Buns in the Gulf Islands) and asked the students to point out prominent points of land on the chart I had on the table to what they could see around them. I wasn't very impressed with their efforts.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I guess I'm still remembering watching some new subbies trying to plot a visual fix on the ECPINs. It was bloody painful to watch.

But I also agree that knowing the position of the ship 60ft astern of the actual position isn't that useful and using all the sensors to show your actual position is far better.

One thing that really worried me was the lack of spatial awareness by some folks. One time I stopped an Orca just off the entrance to Montegue Harbour (home to the best Cinnamon Buns in the Gulf Islands) and asked the students to point out prominent points of land on the chart I had on the table to what they could see around them. I wasn't very impressed with their efforts.

Driving by sight and using visual queues is a skill that will develop over time. I think the Navy expects too much of people too soon in this regard, while also not really teaching them how to use the tools at their disposal that will aide them in making that visual assessment.

With enough practice, they will get good at it but they need to be afforded the opportunity to practice. Our people aren't getting much practice these days.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I guess I'm still remembering watching some new subbies trying to plot a visual fix on the ECPINs. It was bloody painful to watch.

But I also agree that knowing the position of the ship 60ft astern of the actual position isn't that useful and using all the sensors to show your actual position is far better.

One thing that really worried me was the lack of spatial awareness by some folks. One time I stopped an Orca just off the entrance to Montegue Harbour (home to the best Cinnamon Buns in the Gulf Islands) and asked the students to point out prominent points of land on the chart I had on the table to what they could see around them. I wasn't very impressed with their efforts.

My favourite floating coffee shop... if you ask nicely they'll even provide 'drive through' service so you don't need to climb out of your kayak

Coincidentally, taking your snotties out for a spin in some kayaks might be a good idea. There's nothing like having to be good at chart reading to ensure survival to ensure that you get good at chart reading

 

[kev994]

I am pretty sure (but I don’t have them in front of me to confirm) that SPFPs and OACs for Tablets state that ownship position can’t be used for navigation, not the chart itself.

Ours is worded exactly as you describe.

 

[YZT580]

As I said, none of this is taught to anyone. I got yelled at by Sea Training for not doing Paper Relvel

They didn't like my comment "I guarantee with 100% certainty that the shitty little pencil and paper isn't as accurate as my computer that has a feed from all the Ship's navigation systems"



The Navy is not an adaptive organization, its leadership from what I saw is generally averse to new ideas or improved ways of doing things.

I like winning, especially on operations. Effective use of technology reduces workload and improves speed of decision-making. It is an enabler for us to win.

electronic navigation is great stuff. It is reliable, more accurate, and allows precision approaches to limits far greater than following a paper trail BUT it is not failsafe. GPS can be spoofed. The Russians is particular are very adept at this. It can be jammed as well. That is why precision approaches still require an INS system as well. When INS is updated by GPS, even if the GPS fails, the INS will maintain track as it deteriorates only over a time period long enough to be readily detected and allow the user to get the hell out of dodge. Paper backup may seem redundant and old-fashioned but it will eventually safe your ass.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

electronic navigation is great stuff. It is reliable, more accurate, and allows precision approaches to limits far greater than following a paper trail BUT it is not failsafe. GPS can be spoofed. The Russians is particular are very adept at this. It can be jammed as well. That is why precision approaches still require an INS system as well. When INS is updated by GPS, even if the GPS fails, the INS will maintain track as it deteriorates only over a time period long enough to be readily detected and allow the user to get the hell out of dodge. Paper backup may seem redundant and old-fashioned but it will eventually safe your ass.

No dispute from me but there are a variety of methods to confirm position.

You can also use radar fixing, visual fixing, heck you can even use the echo sounder

Warships have a lot of methods at their disposal to confirm position.

 

[YZT580]

No dispute from me but there are a variety of methods to confirm position.

You can also use radar fixing, visual fixing, heck you can even use the echo sounder

Warships have a lot of methods at their disposal to confirm position.

Except when you are really, really close to the rocks it is nice to be sure quickly

 

[armrdsoul77]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1613622275617525776