Loadsa "independents" on the Ballot Discussion (split from PP by-election)

[RangerRay]

My biggest beef with all the PR and PR adjacent systems is the loss of local representation. Any system I have seen, particularly in rural areas, local representation is lost. You’re more likely to have an MP even more clueless about your area than before.

 

[ModlrMike]

All the static noise about PR and similar systems obscures the reality that in Canada, we don't have a single election, we have 338 individual ones.

 

[McG]

My biggest beef with all the PR and PR adjacent systems is the loss of local representation. Any system I have seen, particularly in rural areas, local representation is lost. You’re more likely to have an MP even more clueless about your area than before.

There are options beyond FPTP and PR. We are not stuck in a binary choice.

 

[RangerRay]

There are options beyond FPTP and PR. We are not stuck in a binary choice.

I was also talking about mixed systems I’ve seen. During the first B.C. single transferable vote referendum, I studied the proposal and voted in favour. It seemed to me to be the best one that balanced proportionality and representation. Although it received a majority vote, it didn’t meet the minimum thresholds for ridings in favour and a certain percentage province-wide in favour.

A few years later, they held a second referendum. This time there were more details into how the ridings and MLAs were to be distributed. To say I was shocked was an understatement. Ridings outside of the Lower Mainland were put in 5 member “super ridings” which were massive and centred around one medium sized city. There was no pretence of local representation. Not surprisingly, it went down in defeat when people were shown the details.

I’ve also looked at other mixed systems like Germany and New Zealand. The biggest complaint of those systems is like mine, loss of local representation because the ridings become so huge.

I’d love to see a PR system that didn’t sacrifice local representation. I am currently unaware of any that do.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My biggest beef with all the PR and PR adjacent systems is the loss of local representation. Any system I have seen, particularly in rural areas, local representation is lost. You’re more likely to have an MP even more clueless about your area than before.

Any system will have its pros and cons. I am coming to lean towards the Swiss method PR and Direct Democracy.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I’d love to see a PR system that didn’t sacrifice local representation. I am currently unaware of any that do.

Do you actually feel like you're getting something from your current local representation ? I don't. My MP is Lena Metlage Diab.

 

[RangerRay]

Do you actually feel like you're getting something from your current local representation ? I don't. My MP is Lena Metlage Diab.

No. He’s a Liberal nepo-baby. Most of the ones I’ve had were trained seals for their respective parties. But at least he represents my area and knows what’s going on here.

 

[PrairieFella]

I was also talking about mixed systems I’ve seen. During the first B.C. single transferable vote referendum, I studied the proposal and voted in favour. It seemed to me to be the best one that balanced proportionality and representation. Although it received a majority vote, it didn’t meet the minimum thresholds for ridings in favour and a certain percentage province-wide in favour.

A few years later, they held a second referendum. This time there were more details into how the ridings and MLAs were to be distributed. To say I was shocked was an understatement. Ridings outside of the Lower Mainland were put in 5 member “super ridings” which were massive and centred around one medium sized city. There was no pretence of local representation. Not surprisingly, it went down in defeat when people were shown the details.

I’ve also looked at other mixed systems like Germany and New Zealand. The biggest complaint of those systems is like mine, loss of local representation because the ridings become so huge.

I’d love to see a PR system that didn’t sacrifice local representation. I am currently unaware of any that do.

MMPR. You still elect a local rep but your PR share goes to an elector list. Pick a ratio, ex. 70% local, 30% elector and you maintain local representation but the final result is far more proportionate.

 

[lenaitch]

So either fewer MPs with a constituency and larger ridings or the same plus 'electoral' MPs, so more MPs in total. I don't know enough of the Swiss system but have a sense that a system that works in a country about half the size of New Brunswick and a single time zone might not translate well to the Canadian condition. Regularly going back to the people on 'big issues' poses connectivity issues in a country with variable connectivity quality.

I'm sure they could ameliorate part of the western alienation concern but simply amend the Elections Act so results aren't released until western polls are counted. It would drive the media and pundits nuts.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So either fewer MPs with a constituency and larger ridings or the same plus 'electoral' MPs, so more MPs in total. I don't know enough of the Swiss system but have a sense that a system that works in a country about half the size of New Brunswick and a single time zone might not translate well to the Canadian condition. Regularly going back to the people on 'big issues' poses connectivity issues in a country with variable connectivity quality.

I'm sure they could ameliorate part of the western alienation concern but simply amend the Elections Act so results aren't released until western polls are counted. It would drive the media and pundits nuts.

Change is scary. I get it.

 

[Eaglelord17]

So either fewer MPs with a constituency and larger ridings or the same plus 'electoral' MPs, so more MPs in total. I don't know enough of the Swiss system but have a sense that a system that works in a country about half the size of New Brunswick and a single time zone might not translate well to the Canadian condition. Regularly going back to the people on 'big issues' poses connectivity issues in a country with variable connectivity quality.

I'm sure they could ameliorate part of the western alienation concern but simply amend the Elections Act so results aren't released until western polls are counted. It would drive the media and pundits nuts.

The Swiss have 3 main ethnic groups and 3 official languages which they keep all them happy with their system.

They do quarterly referendums, people know in advance what the things they can vote on are so they can research if they so choose. On top of that you can have a referendum on any law in place provided you get enough signatures. This allows unpopular laws to be struck down without the politicians.

It creates a more responsible government and public as actions now have consequences. The Swiss vote to allow the government to tax them. They all vote yes willingly. That type of responsibility shows what we can aspire to.

I get it, having control is scary. The current system takes that away from you and every other Canadian as there is no way to actually hold the government accountable. They can get elected in and then proceed to do whatever they want for four years and your only recourse is hoping that in four years we put someone else in who will do whatever they said they would. Which if they don’t you go back to the same four year wait.

A different electoral system doesn’t change that four year problem.

It is easy to exist in a system as you’re not accountable in it. The Swiss let you be accountable.

 

[PrairieFella]

So either fewer MPs with a constituency and larger ridings or the same plus 'electoral' MPs, so more MPs in total. I don't know enough of the Swiss system but have a sense that a system that works in a country about half the size of New Brunswick and a single time zone might not translate well to the Canadian condition. Regularly going back to the people on 'big issues' poses connectivity issues in a country with variable connectivity quality.

I'm sure they could ameliorate part of the western alienation concern but simply amend the Elections Act so results aren't released until western polls are counted. It would drive the media and pundits nuts.

At the end of the day who cares if ridings are larger. Your local MP will still continue to ignore local concerns in favour of party priorities just like now but youll have a couple extra towns/neighbourhoods or some extra rural areas to ignore. At least the distribution of seats will be more representative of the will of Canadians generally.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I look at the Israeli system where fringe parties can hold the government in blackmail to unpopular policies in order to maintain a coalition government ...

Hasn't worked ideally in Holland, either ....

Proportional Representation Is Breaking Dutch Democracy

As coalition formation grows ever more tortuous, the Netherlands must confront whether proportional representation itself is the problem.

www.socialeurope.eu

Meanwhile, back here at home, one solution to the "all them candidates on the phone-book sized ballot" problem ...

Terrebonne byelection to use adapted ballot due to high number of candidates

OTTAWA — Voters in Terrebonne will use a write-in ballot in the upcoming byelection, as the Longest Ballot Committee has made the Quebec riding its latest target. Elections Canada's advisory committee of political parties says voters will have to write...

panow.com

So they'll get the ballot people seem to get when they vote early, and have to fill names in.

 

[RangerRay]

Meanwhile, back here at home, one solution to the "all them candidates on the phone-book sized ballot" problem ...

Terrebonne byelection to use adapted ballot due to high number of candidates

OTTAWA — Voters in Terrebonne will use a write-in ballot in the upcoming byelection, as the Longest Ballot Committee has made the Quebec riding its latest target. Elections Canada's advisory committee of political parties says voters will have to write...

panow.com

So they'll get the ballot people seem to get when they vote early, and have to fill names in.

Oooo…Double Uno!

 

[Blackadder1916]

Hasn't worked ideally in Holland, either ....

Proportional Representation Is Breaking Dutch Democracy

As coalition formation grows ever more tortuous, the Netherlands must confront whether proportional representation itself is the problem.

www.socialeurope.eu

Meanwhile, back here at home, one solution to the "all them candidates on the phone-book sized ballot" problem ...

Terrebonne byelection to use adapted ballot due to high number of candidates

OTTAWA — Voters in Terrebonne will use a write-in ballot in the upcoming byelection, as the Longest Ballot Committee has made the Quebec riding its latest target. Elections Canada's advisory committee of political parties says voters will have to write...

panow.com

So they'll get the ballot people seem to get when they vote early, and have to fill names in.

If someone wanted to screw with the write-in balloting, they (either the candidate/party or one with anarchist tendencies - 'not' poll workers) could distribute pre-inked stamps with the (selected) candidates named already prepped. Save the trouble of writing the name on the ballot. Or perhaps a cheaper alternative would be a pre-printed peel and stick label. It is questionable as to whether or not such a ballot is acceptable.