M1299 Extended Range Canon, the new "M109 makeover"?

[FJAG]

23 round magazine - grumble.

 

[ArmyRick]

23 round magazine - grumble.

Thats a very brief fire mission. Would need an ammo carrier?

 

[KevinB]

Update

US Army tested in Yuma the XM1299 artillery system prototypes

The US Army has conducted extensive testing to develop the XM1299 self-propelled howitzer. The tests took place at the Yuma Proving Ground, Ronkainen wrote.

bulgarianmilitary.com

It’s a pretty poorly researched or relayed article.
As the Archer is talks about replacing the M109A7 is actually in a different trial for the Stryker Brigade Arty.

Nothing on the ERCA they mentioned was new either, as it had been covered on earlier articles.

 

[KevinB]

Thats a very brief fire mission. Would need an ammo carrier?

All Arty need them

The issue is the ready round storage on board is limited for any SPA.
The size of the ERCA ammunition makes it less easy to fit a large bussle rack -

I’m always leery of autoloaders for Arty - and as Ukrainian usage has shown a lot of them have exceptional maintenance needs.

 

[FJAG]

Thats a very brief fire mission. Would need an ammo carrier?

That's always one of the reasons I do not get excited about glossy weapons' brochures. You need to understand the entire logistics system. It's not just that you need an ammo limber but how does it function? How much does it hold? How easily do rounds transfer from limber to gun? How easy is it to reload the magazines? or attach fuzes? can you do it under armour? etc. When you have a small magazine like that the next question is what is your onboad load? Smoke? Dumb HE? Precision rounds - guided? - GPS? Illumination? etc etc.

 

[GR66]

That's always one of the reasons I do not get excited about glossy weapons' brochures. You need to understand the entire logistics system. It's not just that you need an ammo limber but how does it function? How much does it hold? How easily do rounds transfer from limber to gun? How easy is it to reload the magazines? or attach fuzes? can you do it under armour? etc. When you have a small magazine like that the next question is what is your onboad load? Smoke? Dumb HE? Precision rounds - guided? - GPS? Illumination? etc etc.

Is there a certain point where the push to field the "perfect" extended range cannon actually becomes a reduction in capabilities? When you look at the weight, transportability, cost (system and ammo), reduced onboard ammo load and (pure conjecture here) a more advanced gun barrel which may have a reduced effective life over other systems which don't use such high pressure...could you get the same (or better) overall effects with a combination of lesser systems?

For the cost of a 6 gun battery of ERCA could you have instead a 6 gun battery of A7's, a HIMARS to strike those targets outside the A7's range and a C-RAM system to make up for the increased vulnerability from the A7's lesser engagement range?

I don't know where you draw the line as to where the advantages of a smaller number of "exquisite" systems vs a larger number of "good enough" systems, but we're seeing these questions asked in lots of areas where new technologies are being fielded (F-35s, CSCs, etc.).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Is there a certain point where the push to field the "perfect" extended range cannon actually becomes a reduction in capabilities? When you look at the weight, transportability, cost (system and ammo), reduced onboard ammo load and (pure conjecture here) a more advanced gun barrel which may have a reduced effective life over other systems which don't use such high pressure...could you get the same (or better) overall effects with a combination of lesser systems?

For the cost of a 6 gun battery of ERCA could you have instead a 6 gun battery of A7's, a HIMARS to strike those targets outside the A7's range and a C-RAM system to make up for the increased vulnerability from the A7's lesser engagement range?

I don't know where you draw the line as to where the advantages of a smaller number of "exquisite" systems vs a larger number of "good enough" systems, but we're seeing these questions asked in lots of areas where new technologies are being fielded (F-35s, CSCs, etc.).

Based on the serviceability issues we're seeing in Ukraine with the guns these days, we'd probably be better off going back to the 25 Pounder.

My Dad told me that they used to test them by chucking them over a cliff, and then firing them afterwards.

 

[calculus]

This is interesting. Korean K9s modified for cold weather operations in Finland. Not sure where Canada sits re. wheeled versus tracked, but this looks like a solid platform. For those worried about the supply chain and inter-operability (valid concerns), the K9 is in service with several NATO allies, and projected to be in service with several more by decades end. The Aussies are also users.

Finnish Army Demonstrates its new K9 Moukari Howitzer in Arctic NATO Exercise Dynamic Front 25

Finnish Army Demonstrates its new K9 Moukari Howitzer in Arctic NATO Exercise Dynamic Front 25

armyrecognition.com

 

[FJAG]

This is interesting. Korean K9s modified for cold weather operations in Finland. Not sure where Canada sits re. wheeled versus tracked, but this looks like a solid platform. For those worried about the supply chain and inter-operability (valid concerns), the K9 is in service with several NATO allies, and projected to be in service with several more by decades end. The Aussies are also users.

Finnish Army Demonstrates its new K9 Moukari Howitzer in Arctic NATO Exercise Dynamic Front 25

Finnish Army Demonstrates its new K9 Moukari Howitzer in Arctic NATO Exercise Dynamic Front 25

armyrecognition.com

Canada's Indirect Fires Modernization project is wheeled/tracked agnostic. It seeks a self propelled version and most of the sampler pictures accompanying briefing slide decks show versions of wheeled SPs rather than tracked. This worries me as I'm definitely in the "tracked" camp because of the increased off road mobility especially in Arctic or bad European mud conditions. IMHO the enhanced mobility of wheeled vehicles on roads is a red herring - roads won't be that good and the need to move on them on long strategic moves is illusional.

The M109A4+ that Canada had were quite capable of doing what the K9 is doing in Finland. I spent three years with an M109 battery in Shilo (where it really gets cold) and in the mud of a German winter thaw and the gun performed very well.

I'm not worried about modern 155s handling the new natures of munitions. There's a constant game of catchup going on but all-in-all most guns will handle most natures of ammo. I do worry about the parts, maintenance and upgrade capability. A supply chain that stretches to Korea is a concern. If we were to have full licence to manufacture our own parts that would be better, but with the few numbers of guns that we will have, that may not be economically viable. For this reason I favour the American m109A7 (or upcoming versions) even though it does not have an L52 or better barrel at this time (Quite frankly I wouldn't buy an M109A7 with a 39 calibre barrel - I'd lease one until a 52 calibre comes out and then get that)

All that said, I think Canada is more likely to get a few Archers than either the M109 or the K9 because of our continuing fetish for wheeled shit.

 

[suffolkowner]

been some stuff in the news about SK K9 with a 58 calibre. Ready to go or more advertising?

South Korea Presents K9A3, an Autonomous Version of K9 Thunder for Strategic Long-Range Strikes at KADEX 2024

Hanwha Aerospace Presents K9A3, an Autonomous Version of K9 Thunder for Strategic Long-Range Strikes at KADEX 2024

armyrecognition.com

 

[OldSolduer]

Canada's Indirect Fires Modernization project is wheeled/tracked agnostic. It seeks a self propelled version and most of the sampler pictures accompanying briefing slide decks show versions of wheeled SPs rather than tracked. This worries me as I'm definitely in the "tracked" camp because of the increased off road mobility especially in Arctic or bad European mud conditions. IMHO the enhanced mobility of wheeled vehicles on roads is a red herring - roads won't be that good and the need to move on them on long strategic moves is illusional.

Whilst your the gun expert I am in the tracked camp too. There will be a bit more maintenance but if gunners are anything like infantry its a team effort.

 

[FJAG]

Whilst your the gun expert I am in the tracked camp too. There will be a bit more maintenance but if gunners are anything like infantry its a team effort.

Absolutely. Maintenance on our battery's tracks - the M109s and the M113 variants - was never a "driver responsibility" but a "detachment responsibility." We always gave troops the time to do that and, during my days, had an absolutely terrific RCEME team to help with the complex work and parts supply.

Track maintenance isn't rocket science; it's just a job of work. Typically our serviceability rate rarely dropped below 95%. I doubt that the wheeled fleets these days have those records. That's not to knock the crews, its knocking the entire system which is failing.

 

[Rifleman62]

IMHO the enhanced mobility of wheeled vehicles on roads is a red herring - roads won't be that good and the need to move on them on long strategic moves is illusional.

Roads = well defined targets. As the Russians now, or any Germans alive from Falaise or the Highway of Death survivors.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Roads = well defined targets. As the Russians now, or any Germans alive from Falaise or the Highway of Death survivors.

But we will only ever need to worry about Peace Support or COIN engagements in the 21st century.... Peace Dividend right? RIGHT?!

 

[OldSolduer]

Thats a very brief fire mission. Would need an ammo carrier?

Here we enter into the realm of logistics, particularly as it applies to the King Of Battle - which is the Artillery.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Here we enter into the realm of logistics, particularly as it applies to the King Of Battle - which is the Artillery.

That King of Battle chews up a lot of resources, not merely logistical.

Maintenence and C2 are much more intensive with Fires compared to other combat support.

 

[dapaterson]

The Army has an institutional bias towards shooters over supporters, at least until the ammo runs out or the guns break down.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The Army has an institutional bias towards shooters over supporters, at least until the ammo runs out or the guns break down.

And you have no way of telling anyone about it

 

[FJAG]

Here we enter into the realm of logistics, particularly as it applies to the King Of Battle - which is the Artillery.

I'll be interested in seeing how the Brits are managing this. I'm not huffed about the Swedish soft-skinned limber vehicle process that I've seen on the glossy brochures and videos. It strikes me as suitable for a three-day range practice but not Ukraine-scale combat.