Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

[dimsum]

A general feeling our military is inept and underfunded. While this is true to some degree the opinion is much worse then reality I believe. This is also largely the fault of the media. The only news surrounding the CAF they will "print" is negative. During Afghanistan they criticized the CAF for not having the right equipment to protect the soldiers, equipment they made it impossible for the CAF to purchase, tanks with A/C for example. In the 90's buying new tanks would have been political suicide.

Yes. And now, people are talking about the Afghan era as when we got everything we wanted.

From reading various posts, people (even in the CAF) treat it like a monolith.

Sure, some parts are inept and underfunded, but the Cpl's view of their Army combat arms unit's issues doesn't necessarily translate into an Air Force project or a Navy training establishment.

I understand that the articles have a max word count so they tend to condense (and maybe oversimplify) things, but the nuance gets missed. And that may skew the reader's opinions on the subject.

And in terms of geography- up the number of RegF opportunities for those now stable jobs in Southwestern Ontario/ Golden Horseshoe. 10 million people.

Hmm, if CFB/ASU London didn't get essentially demolished...

Although you'd just hear more people complaining about housing prices in SW ON. Houses 30 min north of London are going for $1.5m

 

[IKnowNothing]

Hmm, if CFB/ASU London didn't get essentially demolished...

Although you'd just hear more people complaining about housing prices in SW ON. Houses 30 min north of London are going for $1.5m

Honestly I was thinking more about Borden/Meaford. Living in Grey I know we've had the price shock over the last 2-3 years but it's not quite as bad yet. And moving within SW Ontario is not the same thing as moving to Petewawa, or Gagetown, or Edmonton. The whole point would be to recruit people already living in SW Ontario to fill stable SW Ontario positions, leaving those willing/wanting to be elsewhere to be elsewhere. So the people that would be dealing with those housing prices already are.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Honestly I was thinking more about Borden/Meaford. Living in Grey I know we've had the price shock over the last 2-3 years but it's not quite as bad yet. And moving within SW Ontario is not the same thing as moving to Petewawa, or Gagetown, or Edmonton. The whole point would be to recruit people already living in SW Ontario to fill stable SW Ontario positions, leaving those willing/wanting to be elsewhere to be elsewhere. So the people that would be dealing with those housing prices already are.

However, the CAF is quite unlike a lot of employers, where support actually needs to be with, or at least adjacent to the units it's supporting.

Speaking from the area...the sticker shock is rolling up through the Ottawa Valley as well. Yes, Pet is still affordable ( relatively), but being within 2 hours of Ottawa.....its getting there.

 

[dimsum]

However, the CAF is quite unlike a lot of employers, where support actually needs to be with, or at least adjacent to the units it's supporting.

For some things like first-line maintenance, sure.

For others, maybe not.

As an aside, I've mentioned this before but the Australians keep their Army and Air Force bases within their cities. They have vast training areas but like MR, they truck/train/airlift everything there for that time, then they go home.

I'm not Army so I don't know how often one needs to keep current driving a tank or a LAV, but can we not do the same? Or, keep the equipment out in Gagetown/Wainwright/etc but have the people in Edmonton/Calgary/London/etc? For daily maintenance, have a rotation of crews out there from the closest base do the work (like a 1-month TD or so).

 

[OldSolduer]

For some things like first-line maintenance, sure.

For others, maybe not.

As an aside, I've mentioned this before but the Australians keep their Army and Air Force bases within their cities. They have vast training areas but like MR, they truck/train/airlift everything there for that time, then they go home.

I'm not Army so I don't know how often one needs to keep current driving a tank or a LAV, but can we not do the same? Or, keep the equipment out in Gagetown/Wainwright/etc but have the people in Edmonton/Calgary/London/etc? For daily maintenance, have a rotation of crews out there from the closest base do the work (like a 1-month TD or so).

When we still used M113s we sent them by rail to Wainwright, Suffield etc. When we would go on ex in Shilo we would drive everything we could. I think the TUAs were flatbedded to Shilo as were the CP M577s.

 

[IKnowNothing]

However, the CAF is quite unlike a lot of employers, where support actually needs to be with, or at least adjacent to the units it's supporting.

Speaking from the area...the sticker shock is rolling up through the Ottawa Valley as well. Yes, Pet is still affordable ( relatively), but being within 2 hours of Ottawa.....its getting there.

Like 2RCR being in Gagetown? Borden to Pet is a hell of a lot closer than Gagetown to Pet.

Son was restless so I had some rocking chair time in the night, I was thinking that if the Asymmetrical Army proposal goes through and 2CMBG drops the "M" and gets 2RCR back from Gagetown, why couldn't a Bn plus attachments be relocated to Borden/Meaford. Strip it down to a cadre (to get the units remaining in Pet to authorized strength) and recruit amongst 31,32, and 33 CBG to bring it back to strength. When the SHORAD project delivers and another battery needs stood up, recruit in SW Ontario, etc.

 

[Quirky]

I'm not Army so I don't know how often one needs to keep current driving a tank or a LAV, but can we not do the same?

We can do a lot of things like that, including basing our Air Force in major airports like Edmonton or Calgary and deploying to FOBs like Cold lake or Comox for a few weeks. The political will to spend for such things isn't there. Plus the locals don't like loud noises from aircraft or scary people in military uniforms running around their cities.

 

[daftandbarmy]

For some things like first-line maintenance, sure.

For others, maybe not.

As an aside, I've mentioned this before but the Australians keep their Army and Air Force bases within their cities. They have vast training areas but like MR, they truck/train/airlift everything there for that time, then they go home.

I'm not Army so I don't know how often one needs to keep current driving a tank or a LAV, but can we not do the same? Or, keep the equipment out in Gagetown/Wainwright/etc but have the people in Edmonton/Calgary/London/etc? For daily maintenance, have a rotation of crews out there from the closest base do the work (like a 1-month TD or so).

This is a feature of most European armies as well.

In North America we seem to be fine condemning our troops to life as an internal exile, not unlike Siberia for some

 

[OldSolduer]

This is a feature of most European armies as well.

In North America we seem to be fine condemning our troops to life as an internal exile, not unlike Siberia for some

Wainwright I liked. Gagetown not so much.

I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake. The middle of nowhere is just down the road from there.

 

[Underway]

There are still a number of "urban" bases within easy driving distance of major centres. Halifax, Esquimalt, Shearwater, Gagetown (that might be a stretch), Borden, Quebec City, Valcartier, Ottawa (counts as, because of the plethora of jobs in the city).

Is retention higher in those locations than in the Cold Lakes or Shilo's? Do the Van Doo's have higher retention than the PPCLI because of their "urban" bases? Is the Navy just laughing its way past these problems because all of its major bases are located in the middle of cities?

 

[Quirky]

I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake.

There are people who like cold lake (crazy I know). I know a lot of people who have been there for 15+ years and don't want to leave as it's their first posting. There are enough units and positions where they can bounce around the base for 25 years then get a civy job with L3. Ironically enough, there aren't too many openings for Snr NCMs as the ones there don't want to leave for family reasons. I'd consider going back as I found the job very rewarding and interesting, if it wasn't for my wife hating it there and losing her extremely well paying job now.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Like 2RCR being in Gagetown? Borden to Pet is a hell of a lot closer than Gagetown to Pet.

Son was restless so I had some rocking chair time in the night, I was thinking that if the Asymmetrical Army proposal goes through and 2CMBG drops the "M" and gets 2RCR back from Gagetown, why couldn't a Bn plus attachments be relocated to Borden/Meaford. Strip it down to a cadre (to get the units remaining in Pet to authorized strength) and recruit amongst 31,32, and 33 CBG to bring it back to strength. When the SHORAD project delivers and another battery needs stood up, recruit in SW Ontario, etc.

All good if the mandate is to only deliver a functional Army unit. However the ability to have a defense presence other than Central Canada I'm sure is a factor as well.

 

[Bluebulldog]

I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake. The middle of nowhere is just down the road from there.

The only good part to being in Butt F7%K nowhere, is the Butt F7%king....

 

[dimsum]

I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake. The middle of nowhere is just down the road from there.

Having techs on 10-year contracts and not posting them out despite repeated requests, so they quit?

Is retention higher in those locations than in the Cold Lakes or Shilo's?

I'd say so. If your spouse has pretty much zero prospects for employment outside of the Canex or MLMs (or fully remote work), AND it's in the middle of nowhere, it would be a problem for retention.

Is the Navy just laughing its way past these problems because all of its major bases are located in the middle of cities?

I guess, but then it has the housing cost problem. I'm not sure what is worse.

 

[Underway]

I guess, but then it has the housing cost problem. I'm not sure what is worse.

So damned if you do and damned if you don't? Has our complaining become reflexive?

I pointed out a lot of urban bases that don't seem to have better retention numbers than rural bases. I don't think bases are the problem, I think we have structural issues and other problems that are far more pressing than where the bases are. Particularly now that former rural bases are becoming more urban as cities expand outwards.

 

[mariomike]

Unrealistic career expectations aren't unique to the CAF. I partially blame recruiting, but in the desire to make a job seem fulfilling, exciting, glamorous, etc., they fail to mention the a lot of the realities.

Know what you are getting into. "That wasn't in the brochure!"

 

[dimsum]

So damned if you do and damned if you don't? Has our complaining become reflexive?

I pointed out a lot of urban bases that don't seem to have better retention numbers than rural bases. I don't think bases are the problem, I think we have structural issues and other problems that are far more pressing than where the bases are. Particularly now that former rural bases are becoming more urban as cities expand outwards.

Sure, but the trend in demographics (both cultural and age) would suggest that the status quo is not a viable situation.

We should definitely improve the other problems, but I'd say basing location isn't something to drop due to sunk cost. This will definitely influence the number of people coming through the door to CFRC.

If you tell an 18-year old from Vancouver or Toronto that they're living in Gagetown or Shilo, even if you had the best culture possible they'd probably laugh in your face and leave.

 

[IKnowNothing]

There are still a number of "urban" bases within easy driving distance of major centres. Halifax, Esquimalt, Shearwater, Gagetown (that might be a stretch), Borden, Quebec City, Valcartier, Ottawa (counts as, because of the plethora of jobs in the city).

Is retention higher in those locations than in the Cold Lakes or Shilo's? Do the Van Doo's have higher retention than the PPCLI because of their "urban" bases? Is the Navy just laughing its way past these problems because all of its major bases are located in the middle of cities?

Personally I wasn't talking about rural/urban as the geographical issue, moreso the simple proximity to "home." The vast majority of the Quebec population is within 3 hours of Valcartier. What percentage of Ontarians are within 3 hours of Pet?

CAF is short 10k, how many could be filled if the applicable % of 10m people had the option to serve without the guarantee of being posted no where near their friends and family

 

[mariomike]

I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake. The middle of nowhere is just down the road from there.

My sister loved that posting so much she retired there.

The military turned her from a hard pavement case into a real countrywoman.

Sometimes, you have to give new places and people a chance. You'll get that in the CAF.
Not all jobs offer a change of scenery. Sometimes, it does a person good.

 

[dimsum]

Sometimes, you have to give new places and people a chance. You'll get that in the CAF.
Not all jobs offer a change of scenery. Sometimes, it does a person good.

You can do both. Have someone posted near friends/family but have long-ish TDs (a month or two, maybe longer).