Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

[Brad Sallows]

Stationing people in god foresaken places like Meaford, Quebec or Shilo is another.

Close out the older, less-used locations, then. Don't assume government will pay any price to put new facilities closer to where people would like to live, though.

There are still probably enough people willing to put up with what some people are complaining about. The CAF would have to grow a heckuva lot to change that.

 

[OldSolduer]

Training areas in Shilo, Suffield and Wainwright need people to run them. Therefore someone will need to live there.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Training areas in Shilo, Suffield and Wainwright need people to run them. Therefore someone will need to live there.

Civilians ?

 

[Good2Golf]

If you can believe . . .

From the Minister (actually, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence)

Debates (Hansard) No. 128 - September 26, 2003 (37-2) - House of Commons of Canada

Debates (Hansard) No. 128 - September 26, 2003 (37-2) - House of Commons of Canada

www.ourcommons.ca

“For example, some of the changes being proposed in this bill would For example, some of the changes being proposed in this bill would shorten the period of time required to qualify for a pension benefit from 10 years to 2 years, improve pension portability, provide greater flexibility for members of the forces in building their pension incomes by basing calculations on total pensionable service rather than on completing a precise term of engagement, offer entitlement to an immediate unreduced pension after 25 [extended from 20] years of service, and improve pension benefits for survivors. And a final but important point, the new bill would provide pension coverage for reservists.er flexibility for members of the forces in building their pension incomes by basing calculations on total pensionable service rather than on completing a precise term of engagement, offer entitlement to an immediate unreduced pension after 25 years of service, and improve pension benefits for survivors. And a final but important point, the new bill would provide pension coverage for reservists.”

Briefs well, especially this attractive nugget…

“…The chief actuary of the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions estimated that the other changes contained in Bill C-37 would not result in cost increases and might, in fact, result in modest savings.”

…happens differently in real life. How do you think the Department realizes ‘modest savings?’ Hint: give less pension benefits.

From DGCB

Evidence - NDVA (37-2) - No. 37 - House of Commons of Canada

Evidence - NDVA (37-2) - No. 37 - House of Commons of Canada

www.ourcommons.ca

See how well the then Project Director of Pension Modernization worked out for DND?

 

[dimsum]

Civilians ?

That is basically how the Aussies do it, with a small team of ADF members. Entire RAAF "base bases" (like our FOLs) up north with 2-3 members keeping the lights on if needed.

From what I understand, if you do those postings, you have the choice for your next one.

 

[btrudy]

Civilians ?

Another alternative could be along the same lines, staff them primarily with a number of Class B reservists.

The primary benefit of both approaches being that everyone who ends up there will do so because they deliberately applied for a position there. They knew what they were getting into when they made the choice to go for the job.

They're not just getting shafted by getting posted in the middle of nowhere, forced to chose between, for example, leaving their spouse behind or said spouse not being able to get work.

 

[dapaterson]

See how well the then Project Director of Pension Modernization worked out for DND?

I have all the feels.

 

[lenaitch]

Sure, but the trend in demographics (both cultural and age) would suggest that the status quo is not a viable situation.

We should definitely improve the other problems, but I'd say basing location isn't something to drop due to sunk cost. This will definitely influence the number of people coming through the door to CFRC.

If you tell an 18-year old from Vancouver or Toronto that they're living in Gagetown or Shilo, even if you had the best culture possible they'd probably laugh in your face and leave.

I would suggest that if you tell a lot of 18-year old Torontonians that they would have to move pretty much anywhere you'd get much the same reaction.

I suppose you could turn Borden into a garrison but the locals would complain about all the bangy-boomy stuff, because a lot of the locals are former city folks.

If they create bases near urban areas where people seem to want to live, but people have to continually deploy to the boonies for training or operational needs, are you trading living in a place you don't like for living in a place you do, but are never there?

Travel and deployments are one thing.

Stationing people in god foresaken places like Meaford, Quebec or Shilo is another.

We need to recruit for the time period we're in not the one that it used to be. Adapt or die mon ami.

I guess you have to separate the condition of the facilities (or what goes on there) from the vicinity. Calling the Meaford area "god-forsaken" seems to fly in the face of the number of people moving there and the resultant rise in housing costs.

It's highly subject. Where is not considered 'god-forsaken'? Anywhere near a population centre is going to suffer from costs to create and maintain, costs to live, and distance to training areas.

 

[Furniture]

I guess you have to separate the condition of the facilities (or what goes on there) from the vicinity. Calling the Meaford area "god-forsaken" seems to fly in the face of the number of people moving there and the resultant rise in housing costs.

It's highly subject. Where is not considered 'god-forsaken'? Anywhere near a population centre is going to suffer from costs to create and maintain, costs to live, and distance to training areas.

Who is moving there, 18 year old's, or 55 year old's who sold a house in Toronto and want a slower pace of life?

We need to find a way to make being in less "boring" for city folks, or we we be stuck recruiting from a dwindling pool of undesirable white males looking for work.

 

[lenaitch]

Who is moving there, 18 year old's, or 55 year old's who sold a house in Toronto and want a slower pace of life?

We need to find a way to make being in less "boring" for city folks, or we we be stuck recruiting from a dwindling pool of undesirable white males looking for work.

You're right, it does skew older. I'm just not too sure how you attract, in terms of lifestyle, a significant segment of city kids, or kids who are desirous to live in urban area, unless you are actually located in a city. I don't think all is lost - 2/3 of the population is still outside of the three main urban areas, but the urban migration is trending for sure.

 

[FSTO]

I'll agree with two of three; Quebec City is magnificent.

Being from SW Manitoba I’m sending a big middle finger to all you pussies! If you love the concrete jungle the it’s not for you but the hunting, camping, and fishing is off the charts.

I’m 2 scotches, a G&T and a beer into the evening.

 

[Furniture]

You're right, it does skew older. I'm just not too sure how you attract, in terms of lifestyle, a significant segment of city kids, or kids who are desirous to live in urban area, unless you are actually located in a city. I don't think all is lost - 2/3 of the population is still outside of the three main urban areas, but the urban migration is trending for sure

Bear in mind that crappy little podunk towns like Edmonton, Calgary, Quebec, Halifax, Victoria, Ottawa, etc.. exist outside the three main urban areas as well.

There is a world of difference between Edmonton, and Oromocto when it comes to employment opportunities for a spouse. The Ontario idea of a "small town" like Belleville with 50K population, is different than the second largest population center in MB, which is Brandon at 51K...

 

[daftandbarmy]

You're right, it does skew older. I'm just not too sure how you attract, in terms of lifestyle, a significant segment of city kids, or kids who are desirous to live in urban area, unless you are actually located in a city. I don't think all is lost - 2/3 of the population is still outside of the three main urban areas, but the urban migration is trending for sure.

In the UK most people could get home on a weekend if they wanted to from most bases, usually by train, which helped make life a little less of a PITA.

However if you lived in the south, and were posted to Scotland, it made things a little more challenging. I recall an intrepid band of 'family men' from the Marines regularly departing Arbroath Friday afternoon to get to Plymouth by oh dark hundred that night, then being back by first parade Monday.

it's about a 9+hour one way drive. Pretty normal for Canadians, and a Homerian epic for the British

Arbroath to Plymouth

www.google.com

 

[Maxman1]

So we still have 42%, 43% and 39% who ARE interested. Those are good numbers.

Now do police, firefighters, airline pilots and truck drivers as a comparison.

 

[dimsum]

If they create bases near urban areas where people seem to want to live, but people have to continually deploy to the boonies for training or operational needs, are you trading living in a place you don't like for living in a place you do, but are never there?

Given that a major dissatisfier is that members' spouses do not have gainful employment, then I would 100% support living in a good place for their employment/schooling/family life, and you travelling.

Given the op tempo for some RCAF fleets, right now they're not in urban areas AND they're frequently deployed.

 

[Good2Golf]

Yeah, not gonna happen. Who has a louder voice, DND or the voters in the NIMBYhood?

(Hint: think of RCAF Station Downsview and its F-86 and CF-100 fighter jets)

 

[IKnowNothing]

You're right, it does skew older. I'm just not too sure how you attract, in terms of lifestyle, a significant segment of city kids, or kids who are desirous to live in urban area, unless you are actually located in a city. I don't think all is lost - 2/3 of the population is still outside of the three main urban areas, but the urban migration is trending for sure.

Bear in mind that crappy little podunk towns like Edmonton, Calgary, Quebec, Halifax, Victoria, Ottawa, etc.. exist outside the three main urban areas as well.

There is a world of difference between Edmonton, and Oromocto when it comes to employment opportunities for a spouse. The Ontario idea of a "small town" like Belleville with 50K population, is different than the second largest population center in MB, which is Brandon at 51K...

Falling into the trap of associating Southern Ontario and the GTA. Yes the GTA/Golden Horseshoe has the majority of the population, but that overshadows that the non-GH part of Southwestern Ontario is more than 2.5 million. Higher than Manitoba and Saskatchewan combined, a lot of it Belleville type small towns, actual small towns, and rural, a lot of it skewing conservative.

Narrowing the view somewhat here to look at Meaford/Borden. There's ~400k people living in rural Grey/Dufferin/Simcoe/Wellington, a lot of them people with multigenerational roots, strong family ties, no desire to leave, a manufacturing sector getting hammered and an agricultural sector going commercial/robotic. Open the scope a little to include Barrie and Guelph and you're just shy of a million people.

I may completely off base here (and I'd love if anyone could point me in the direction of enlistment info that I could take a look at) but I get the feeling that Quebec and the Prairies punch above their weight in terms of proportional recruitment, and I'd hypothesize that being able to serve "at home" plays a part in that.

 

[dimsum]

completely off base here

Pun intended?

but I get the feeling that Quebec and the Prairies punch above their weight in terms of proportional recruitment, and I'd hypothesize that being able to serve "at home" plays a part in that.

Or because they want to GTFO from those areas. Or jobs.

 

[Booter]

In the past decade, since we stopped in Afghanistan- what is the REAL thing that we are selling? There have been Ops and I’m not saying otherwise.

But for the 80 thousand uniforms- what has been the “adventure” and getting to do your job part?

Maybe I’m way out of ‘er. But we aren’t selling much beyond government service and a pension. Why would I leave home for that?

 

[IKnowNothing]

Pun intended?


Or because they want to GTFO from those areas. Or jobs.

That's why 1 CMBG has so many Westerner's, and 5 so many Quebecois?