Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Colin Parkinson]

My question was asked out of ignorance and partially rhetorical. It's one thing to surveil international waters, and maybe in regard to fishing in international waters there is some manner of international treaty. I was mainly wondering what the authority was of any nation to stop and board (or even shoot at) another vessel in international waters.

Well you must be Chinese and just claim any bit of water or region as part of your area.

 

[Swampbuggy]

My question was asked out of ignorance and partially rhetorical. It's one thing to surveil international waters, and maybe in regard to fishing in international waters there is some manner of international treaty. I was mainly wondering what the authority was of any nation to stop and board (or even shoot at) another vessel in international waters.

That brings up something I’ve wondered for some time. When an RCN ship is supporting a USCG LEDET in an OP CARIBBE, are there any situations where the RCN takes responsibility/authority on their own, rather than the USCG? I’m unsure of the protocol of who is responsible for what in these scenarios. My (admittedly very limited) understanding of the cooperation is that CAN is supplying the platform for the USCG to do execute their enforcement mandate along with (I’m assuming) whatever categorization and storage is required after any narcotics are seized. So, is the RCN an active participant beyond providing a moving base of operations or could it be a ship provided by another source (DFO, CCG or possibly even Federal Fleet?)?

 

[Stoker]

That brings up something I’ve wondered for some time. When an RCN ship is supporting a USCG LEDET in an OP CARIBBE, are there any situations where the RCN takes responsibility/authority on their own, rather than the USCG? I’m unsure of the protocol of who is responsible for what in these scenarios. My (admittedly very limited) understanding of the cooperation is that CAN is supplying the platform for the USCG to do execute their enforcement mandate along with (I’m assuming) whatever categorization and storage is required after any narcotics are seized. So, is the RCN an active participant beyond providing a moving base of operations or could it be a ship provided by another source (DFO, CCG or possibly even Federal Fleet?)?

Once they get a bust the drugs are stored onboard until they can be offloaded to a USCG ship, same if they get any detainees. Caribbe is the Canadian portion of OP Martello. We operate under a MOU for the use of sensors such as on an Aurora or the Kingston Class or whatever platform they send. We don't participate in active interdiction. and work with the USCG personnel onboard who is contact with US Southern Command, who has Canadian personnel there I believe.

 

[KevinB]

My question was asked out of ignorance and partially rhetorical. It's one thing to surveil international waters, and maybe in regard to fishing in international waters there is some manner of international treaty. I was mainly wondering what the authority was of any nation to stop and board (or even shoot at) another vessel in international waters.

 

[lenaitch]

That was my first guess.

 

[Furniture]

That was my first guess.

Before it was that, is was this...

Before that, it was this...

 

[Underway]

Before it was that, is was this...

Before that, it was this...

You totally missed the Spanish and Portuguese in between those two (and the Dutch in some places).

 

[Navy_Pete]

Before it was that, is was this...

Before that, it was this...

Obligatory 'Do you have a Flag' bit;

 

[KevinB]

That was my first guess.

Generally the LEDETs deal with counter narcotics missions, which a long with terrorism and piracy pretty much anyone can take action against them and be covered legally under international law.

As I understand it, the flagged nation can complain about a boarding should they feel there wasn’t cause.

 

[lenaitch]

Generally the LEDETs deal with counter narcotics missions, which a long with terrorism and piracy pretty much anyone can take action against them and be covered legally under international law.

As I understand it, the flagged nation can complain about a boarding should they feel there wasn’t cause.

I'm guessing not a lot of drug runners pirates and maritime terrorists sail under national flags now days.

 

[Swampbuggy]

I'm guessing not a lot of drug runners pirates and maritime terrorists sail under national flags now days.

Well, the Philippines may disagree…

 

[KevinB]

I'm guessing not a lot of drug runners pirates and maritime terrorists sail under national flags now days.

The Russian shadow oil fleet begs to disagree -- there are a number of "flag of convenience nations" that allow flagging for a nominal fee -- however pretty much none of them will complain if a USN vessel boards them or even sinks them if they had illicit goods.

 

[Furniture]

You totally missed the Spanish and Portuguese in between those two (and the Dutch in some places).

No... I intentionally skipped them.

 

[calculus]

A cautionary tale that should be studied by any project team assigned to an MCDV replacement project: Civmec plans takeover of Luerssen Australia amidst OPV disarray - Naval News
Note the comment in the second last paragraph:
"The review took a dim view of the Arafura class: “The OPV is an inefficient use of resources for civil maritime security operations and does not possess the survivability and self-defence systems to contribute to a surface combatant mission."

What was to be a dozen pretty well armed ships, was cut to 6, and so watered down in capability they don't do anything well. Another example of why we should NOT look to Australia as a model of naval procurement.

 

[Underway]

A cautionary tale that should be studied by any project team assigned to an MCDV replacement project: Civmec plans takeover of Luerssen Australia amidst OPV disarray - Naval News
Note the comment in the second last paragraph:
"The review took a dim view of the Arafura class: “The OPV is an inefficient use of resources for civil maritime security operations and does not possess the survivability and self-defence systems to contribute to a surface combatant mission."

What was to be a dozen pretty well armed ships, was cut to 6, and so watered down in capability they don't do anything well. Another example of why we should NOT look to Australia as a model of naval procurement.

Like us they get some things right and mess others up. They were well out ahead in reinvigorating their fleets in response to China. They also have a very good strategic plan and work towards that with their purchases and restructuring. Canada's biggest problem is we often move without a strategic plan. I think that is slowly changing.

 

[Kirkhill]

You totally missed the Spanish and Portuguese in between those two (and the Dutch in some places).

Rolls of Oléron - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maritime law | Definition, History, Examples, & Facts | Britannica

Maritime law, the body of legal rules that governs ships and shipping. In English-speaking countries, “admiralty” is sometimes used synonymously, but in a strict sense the term refers to the jurisdiction and procedural law of courts whose origins may be traced to the office of Admiral. Although

www.britannica.com

 

[JMCanada]

Meanwhile in the Mediterranean, by the end of 13th century...
“No fish in the Mediterranean dares to raise its back above the waters without bearing the four stripes of the House of Aragon.”

Kingdom of Aragon - Wikipedia

And by the 14th century...

Battle of La Rochelle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The Castilian victory was complete and the entire English fleet was captured or destroyed. (...) This defeat undermined English seaborne trade and supplies through the English Channel and threatened their Gascon possessions".

 

[Czech_pivo]

I found this to be an interesting article talking about the differences between an OPV and a Corvette in modern times.

Universal appeal: OPVs and corvettes proliferate​

In a booming naval surface warship market, the OPV and corvette sector, particularly in the Asia-Pacific, offers increasing opportunity.​

Universal appeal: OPVs and corvettes proliferate - Global Defence Technology | Issue 145 | February 2024

In a booming naval surface warship market, the OPV and corvette sector, particularly in the Asia-Pacific, offers increasing opportunity.

defence.nridigital.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile in the Mediterranean, by the end of 13th century...
“No fish in the Mediterranean dares to raise its back above the waters without bearing the four stripes of the House of Aragon.”

Kingdom of Aragon - Wikipedia

And by the 14th century...

Battle of La Rochelle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The Castilian victory was complete and the entire English fleet was captured or destroyed. (...) This defeat undermined English seaborne trade and supplies through the English Channel and threatened their Gascon possessions".

Just a note

Eleanor of Aquitaine was originally holder of both Gascony and La Rochelle when she promulgated the Rolls of Oleron in the 12th century. She had them applied to her husbands domains in Brittany (Angers) and England.

Some stories claim she copied Genoese law which in turn was a copy of Levant law.

Law followed the largest navy.

 

[Underway]

Listening to CRCN on the CDR podcast today during my drive to work.

Spoke about the Multimission Corvette. He was very clear that this is the name they are using for the program but they are not limiting their thinking to a traditional corvette. They are closely watching the LOSV (large optionally crewed surface vessel) programs and the Australian Tier 2 program. This program needs to be a warship of some sort.