Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Stoker]

Have you ever been on those things, not a really good go. After the PROTECTEUR fire crew were put on one of them in Pearl they had mattresses from a battleship. Lots of complaints.

 

[Stoker]

dont forget Davies just purchased Helsinki Shipyard and all their capability. Capacity may not be a problem for them.

Still a offshore yard and shouldn't be used for NSS.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Since the frigates will be the fleet backbone for some time to come, [...]

If they be the backbone, we soon be suffering from osteoporosis. Where can we get shots of calcium?

 

[quadrapiper]

If they be the backbone, we soon be suffering from osteoporosis. Where can we get shots of calcium?

A more intensive refit cycle in all those spare yards with hundreds of trained tradespeople hanging around, along with a massive (including standing up Crown machining capacity) parts buy/build.

Fixing MARTECH and the whole "risk management by assuming the risk" thing, plus flags not enthusiastically accepting every possible deployment? Prioritize new CAF housing in Halifax and Esquimalt? Push anyone fit sea who's been lurking in non-technical staff jobs back to the coasts? Expand capacity at the schools, and add some sort of "start sea pay on attestation" sweetener for people joining hard naval trades, stopping after they're posted away from a ship?

 

[Stoker]

A more intensive refit cycle in all those spare yards with hundreds of trained tradespeople hanging around, along with a massive (including standing up Crown machining capacity) parts buy/build.

Fixing MARTECH and the whole "risk management by assuming the risk" thing, plus flags not enthusiastically accepting every possible deployment? Prioritize new CAF housing in Halifax and Esquimalt? Push anyone fit sea who's been lurking in non-technical staff jobs back to the coasts? Expand capacity at the schools, and add some sort of "start sea pay on attestation" sweetener for people joining hard naval trades, stopping after they're posted away from a ship?

There are plenty of good ideas around, unfortunately none gets traction as they have a cost attached. Imagine if you joined you immediately qualified for a low interest mortgage and was guaranteed a family doctor for your family. They'll be knocking down the doors wanting to join.

 

[Halifax Tar]

A more intensive refit cycle in all those spare yards with hundreds of trained tradespeople hanging around, along with a massive (including standing up Crown machining capacity) parts buy/build.

Fixing MARTECH and the whole "risk management by assuming the risk" thing, plus flags not enthusiastically accepting every possible deployment? Prioritize new CAF housing in Halifax and Esquimalt? Push anyone fit sea who's been lurking in non-technical staff jobs back to the coasts? Expand capacity at the schools, and add some sort of "start sea pay on attestation" sweetener for

people joining hard naval trades, stopping after they're posted away from a ship?

I'm not sure if it's a misnomer, but Hard Sea Trades aren't the only ones who go to sea, and they aren't even the ones in the worst shape, they are in bad shape though.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am with HT on this one, any trade that goes to sea is a sea trade and works on the basis of the same hardships. I never liked that naming policy.

As for the engineering side, I am from a very old school. In my days (early/mid 70's - before I became a MARS officer), the concept in use was called preventative maintenance (it was pre-computers so we used the "Kalamazoo"): every so many hours, part a, b or c was taken apart, cleaned up, greased/oiled/whatever else it needed and put back together. Every so many cycles of this, it was replaced, regardless of "apparent" condition. Everything (and I mean everything - I personally had to replace and throw away galley toasters) was the object of this method.

Did we throw away things that were still in working condition and not near end of life? Probably, but we had a lot less breakdowns than what seems to be the current situation, and we stretched the life of the ships well beyond their expected lifetime.

 

[NavyShooter]

From what I'm seeing, the problem is less about the individual systems - the pumps, the engines, the toasters...and more about the structure of the ships.

When a hull is designed to last 25-30 years or so, and they're now at that age, and being asked to serve another 10-15 years...that's...a lot to ask.

If we'd wanted a 40 year hull, they could have done that more easily from the start. Now, well, they're having to fix the problem one plate at a time.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think once the dust settles down from the current ship building plan we will see some outside investment in smaller under utilized Canadian shipyards. There are a few around that could be ramped up for production of smaller ships.

The NSS specifically rules out the 3 yards from ships over 1000 tonnes, so call me cynical why there are lobbyists 'recommending' Canada look at something in the 1500-2000 tonne range.

The beauty of the MCDVs is they are small and cheap to operate while providing some capability without needing much crew; a replacement in the same size range would actually make sense, and lots of small yards that could build them (like Group Ocean).

Having said that, the RCN is smoking crack as this project isn't even preliminary approved for future funding in real terms, with no staff to run it and no sailors to crew it (or even the AOPs/JSS/CSC fleet) so this is a nice wish list.

 

[quadrapiper]

I'm not sure if it's a misnomer, but Hard Sea Trades aren't the only ones who go to sea, and they aren't even the ones in the worst shape, they are in bad shape though.

Certainly. Just batted that out as a very tidy option for bait.

Running with the idea of incentives, when does Logistician Bloggins (clerk, met, cook, firefighter, PA, whatever) get their first posting identified, and would there be an easy way to ID and incentivize people in those trades to go to sea?

Also, do some of the seagoing purple(ish) trades not end up aboard ship until later in their career?

 

[Navy_Pete]

From what I'm seeing, the problem is less about the individual systems - the pumps, the engines, the toasters...and more about the structure of the ships.

When a hull is designed to last 25-30 years or so, and they're now at that age, and being asked to serve another 10-15 years...that's...a lot to ask.

If we'd wanted a 40 year hull, they could have done that more easily from the start. Now, well, they're having to fix the problem one plate at a time.

It's sort of both; the hulls, piping and other basics are in bad shape, but we have thousands of obsolete widgets, sub systems and major systems that are at end of life and not supported by the OEMs.

We replaced the DGs on the CPFs because there were only 54 left in operation in the world (12 cpfs plus spares) but that's the type of the iceberg on the MSE side.

Valves big and small, gauges, pumps and all sorts of unsexy but vital stuff aren't supported, and usually functional replacements are different sizes. You can make up a bit of a gap on a valve flange-to-flange with a spacer if it's slightly smaller, but that almost never happens so you have to redo the piping in the section (and usually find the pipe is rotten as well).

Things like halon have pretty obvious impacts, but HP and LP air, sea water systems, domestic systems etc are all in a similar boat. Just the hull issues are a lot more obvious when you can put a hammer through it, or if there is a big giant insert going in. No one wants to tap the firemains with a hammer, and get pushback for doing a standard pressure test following repairs because lack of confidence in the non-repaired piping to stand up to 1.5 times pressure (even though the design should have enough meat for the pipe burst pressure for around 3.5 times operating due to some of the shock requirements and safety factors).

 

[Halifax Tar]

Certainly. Just batted that out as a very tidy option for bait.

lol Got me!

Running with the idea of incentives, when does Logistician Bloggins (clerk, met, cook, firefighter, PA, whatever) get their first posting identified, and would there be an easy way to ID and incentivize people in those trades to go to sea?

I can only speak for Log folks, but I suspect the medical world is the same way. Around half way through a members initial trades training the meet with the CM for the first time and receive their first posting. Also generally their first posting isn't to a ship, it would be to a coast who would then load them on an NETP and following that to a ship. I would say that's an ideal route.

Also we don't have RCAF FFs anymore.

Also, do some of the seagoing purple(ish) trades not end up aboard ship until later in their career?

Generally no, not anymore. Succession planning and has somewhat straightened that out. And many of us switch uniforms at the Sgt/WO level to what ever we have our time in and move through that system.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I am with HT on this one, any trade that goes to sea is a sea trade and works on the basis of the same hardships. I never liked that naming policy.

As for the engineering side, I am from a very old school. In my days (early/mid 70's - before I became a MARS officer), the concept in use was called preventative maintenance (it was pre-computers so we used the "Kalamazoo"): every so many hours, part a, b or c was taken apart, cleaned up, greased/oiled/whatever else it needed and put back together. Every so many cycles of this, it was replaced, regardless of "apparent" condition. Everything (and I mean everything - I personally had to replace and throw away galley toasters) was the object of this method.

Did we throw away things that were still in working condition and not near end of life? Probably, but we had a lot less breakdowns than what seems to be the current situation, and we stretched the life of the ships well beyond their expected lifetime.

We have a better process for this now. We don't throw things in the scrap metal bin anymore, just because. They get cycled through the R&O lines and, hopefully, put back into the CFSS for reissue.

But man do I remember those days. B Class returns went out the clamshells of PRE.

 

[quadrapiper]

lol Got me!

I can only speak for Log folks, but I suspect the medical world is the same way. Around half way through a members initial trades training the meet with the CM for the first time and receive their first posting. Also generally their first posting isn't to a ship, it would be to a coast who would then load them on an NETP and following that to a ship. I would say that's an ideal route.

Copy. Ideal route as in "how the current system is meant to work," or "probably the best way to do it?"

And I absolutely meant bait for the hypothetical recruit!

Also we don't have RCAF FFs anymore.

Noted.

Generally no, not anymore. Succession planning and has somewhat straightened that out. And many of us switch uniforms at the Sgt/WO level to what ever we have our time in and move through that system.

Got it. Wasn't sure if certain singular or small-department shipboard roles were intentionally filled with people who'd spent time in better-supported settings.

 

[Furniture]

Also, do some of the seagoing purple(ish) trades not end up aboard ship until later in their career?

In Met you don't typically sail until you're a MS/MCpl, so it's generally 6+ years into the military. We also have limited posting ashore on the coasts, so you have to move to a high CoL area, then go do something completely new.

Some of us love/loved it, some hate/hated it, and many are/were too scared to try something new.

 

[Grimey]

I am with HT on this one, any trade that goes to sea is a sea trade and works on the basis of the same hardships. I never liked that naming policy.

As for the engineering side, I am from a very old school. In my days (early/mid 70's - before I became a MARS officer), the concept in use was called preventative maintenance (it was pre-computers so we used the "Kalamazoo"): every so many hours, part a, b or c was taken apart, cleaned up, greased/oiled/whatever else it needed and put back together. Every so many cycles of this, it was replaced, regardless of "apparent" condition. Everything (and I mean everything - I personally had to replace and throw away galley toasters) was the object of this method.

Did we throw away things that were still in working condition and not near end of life? Probably, but we had a lot less breakdowns than what seems to be the current situation, and we stretched the life of the ships well beyond their expected lifetime.

Ah, the good ole' days of baseline refits when your Y-100 powered destroyer came out of the yard with the same sleek Greyhound of Death attributes it had when it was new from the builders. We're some decades away from that, sir

 

[childs56]

The NSS specifically rules out the 3 yards from ships over 1000 tonnes, so call me cynical why there are lobbyists 'recommending' Canada look at something in the 1500-2000 tonne range.

Not sure where it says specifically that it rules out ships over 1000tonne. But this is taken from the website for the NSS

1. Construction of large vessels (more than 1,000 tonnes of displacement)​

Following a competitive, fair, open and transparent process, the government established long-term strategic relationships for the construction of large vessels with 3 Canadian shipyards: Seaspan’s Vancouver Shipyards in British Columbia, Chantier Davie Canada Inc. in Lévis, Quebec, and Irving Shipbuilding Inc. in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Together, the 3 shipyards are investing hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade their facilities to meet the shipbuilding requirements for a modern Canadian fleet.

 

[suffolkowner]

Not sure where it says specifically that it rules out ships over 1000tonne. But this is taken from the website for the NSS

1. Construction of large vessels (more than 1,000 tonnes of displacement)​

Following a competitive, fair, open and transparent process, the government established long-term strategic relationships for the construction of large vessels with 3 Canadian shipyards: Seaspan’s Vancouver Shipyards in British Columbia, Chantier Davie Canada Inc. in Lévis, Quebec, and Irving Shipbuilding Inc. in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Together, the 3 shipyards are investing hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade their facilities to meet the shipbuilding requirements for a modern Canadian fleet.

i think over should be under

 

[OldSolduer]

From what I'm seeing, the problem is less about the individual systems - the pumps, the engines, the toasters...and more about the structure of the ships.

When a hull is designed to last 25-30 years or so, and they're now at that age, and being asked to serve another 10-15 years...that's...a lot to ask.

If we'd wanted a 40 year hull, they could have done that more easily from the start. Now, well, they're having to fix the problem one plate at a time.

Metal fatigues eventually and even more so in salt water, am I correct?

 

[KevinB]

Metal fatigues eventually and even more so in salt water, am I correct?

Two different but related issues. Salt water is a vastly more aggressive source of corrosion. When stuff gets corroded (beyond surface rust) then you have less material, and depending on what it is, can be under much more force, which can then further acerbate corrosion due to more open surfaces etc.