Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Underway]

Dofasco aren't set up to do the specialized annealing and heat treatment for those specialty steels,

Dofasco pivoted a few years ago and their killer app is specialty steel for cars roll frames.

But I too am unsure of what is happening at those places, though in my drive past today I noticed a bunch of massive Canada flags on Dofasco's buildings and cranes. That was new.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Perhaps carney can put one of his promised government emergency plans into effect and get them built. And a lot faster than normal timings.

 

[PrairieFella]

Wouln't that go by train to Thunder Bay then by boat from there? That's a pretty old shipping route from what I recall.


There were a bunch of similar proposals from different companies that got screened out when NSS went through the first phase, and that was a fully funded program supported by Cabinet.

This is optimistic marketing that may have some discussion with a few senior people, but no one that has understands how to make it a reality. At that proposed tonnage the NSS yards get first dibs on ships on the larger size, and when they are looking at building the order books will be opening up in Vancouver. On the smaller ships those are required to be openly competed under the 65 year old 'Made in Canada' policy, with the NSS yards specifically excluded, but we don't do untendered proposals (unless you are Davie).

Nice marketing though.

It is a very old trade route. One of Thunder Bay's old raison d'être in fact. I don't know what quality of steel they make but I know they at least make construction grade stuff. Most of the elevator steel in Canada comes from Gerdau in Selkirk. Maybe it's being looked into, idk

 

[Navy_Pete]

Dofasco pivoted a few years ago and their killer app is specialty steel for cars roll frames.

But I too am unsure of what is happening at those places, though in my drive past today I noticed a bunch of massive Canada flags on Dofasco's buildings and cranes. That was new.

I think that's ultra light steel, which is something they started working on with the various car plants about 20 ish years ago (but makes a lot of sense). It's pretty neat to see it get made, actually a few bits of ultra thin steel get pressed and fitted together with machine welding to form hollow structures that are much stronger, but takes a lot of accuracy and precision on the cutting/forming/welding side so took a while to get everything sorted. My dad worked on it in the early stages so got to hear about it for years.

Their cold rolled steel is thin sheet, and their hot rolled can handle up to 0.5", so with the right grade that's okay for some ships (CPF shell are in the 6-8mm range, with a lot of primary structure at 1/2" or less), but things like armor plating on the flight deck is a pretty specialty grade and I think 3/4" or so.

Using Canadian steel would be awesome for RCD, but imagine they've already got contracts in place due to the volume and lead time required and already received some to do all the test welds and modules to dial in their machine settings as well as manual welding procedures. The RCD will actually be harder to make, just because the thinner steel is a lot more susceptible to heat distortion compared to the heavy plate on AOPs, but I'm sure there are a few thousand kms less linear welds when you don't need to do 50 passes to fill in a butt joint on 2" plate where the cap is a dozen passes wide. Failing an Xray on those and having to gouge it out to redo has to suck.

 

[Nvlgzr]

I wonder if Gerdau in Selkirk,MB could make ship steel? But at that point the cost of shipping would be nutty.

Gerdau has a huge plant in Whitby as well. I think they recycle steel there.

 

[YZT580]

Perhaps carney can put one of his promised government emergency plans into effect and get them built. And a lot faster than normal timings.

do you need more than one supplier? I wouldn't think the total need for specialty steel for the navy would keep more than one kiln up and running. Be more logical to have the mills agree on their specialty range and go from there. or would it?

 

[GR66]

Two opinion pieces from the Naval Association of Canada website on what the MCDV replacement should look like.

Naval Association of Canada - Association Navale du Canada

Built on a base of retired and serving naval personnel of all ranks NAC welcomes as members all those interested in working to ensure Canada has the strong Navy it needs.

www.navalassoc.ca

https://www.navalassoc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Todd-Corvettes.pdf

Definitely count me in the camp of the 1st article. While I definitely think USV's and UUV's should be in the plans for the RCN, the idea that you'd try to build an all-singing, all-dancing Frigate-sized multi-role USV seems silly to me. It would likely cost as much as a manned vessel and be subject to failure and breakdown. Unmanned systems in my mind should be cheap and attritable. To do that they need to be as simple as possible which means single role...an arsenal ship, a sensor hub, etc.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

One thing these people pushing "optionally crewed vessels" forget is that damage to the ship when uncrewed, might mean a total loss, compared to the ship surviving if crewed and DC is taking place. Unless you are also building in a auto DC system, which will drive the price up and the maintenance costs as well.

 

[Kirkhill]

One thing these people pushing "optionally crewed vessels" forget is that damage to the ship when uncrewed, might mean a total loss, compared to the ship surviving if crewed and DC is taking place. Unless you are also building in a auto DC system, which will drive the price up and the maintenance costs as well.

So build the ship cheap and bale. You don't even have any cargo to worry about. If you have security issues and she is going down scuttle her comprehensively.

 

[Kirkhill]

Two opinion pieces from the Naval Association of Canada website on what the MCDV replacement should look like.

Naval Association of Canada - Association Navale du Canada

Built on a base of retired and serving naval personnel of all ranks NAC welcomes as members all those interested in working to ensure Canada has the strong Navy it needs.

www.navalassoc.ca

https://www.navalassoc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Todd-Corvettes.pdf

Definitely count me in the camp of the 1st article. While I definitely think USV's and UUV's should be in the plans for the RCN, the idea that you'd try to build an all-singing, all-dancing Frigate-sized multi-role USV seems silly to me. It would likely cost as much as a manned vessel and be subject to failure and breakdown. Unmanned systems in my mind should be cheap and attritable. To do that they need to be as simple as possible which means single role...an arsenal ship, a sensor hub, etc.

I agree on the frigate sized USV. It is silly. Better to scatter the sensors and effectors across multiple hulls.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I agree on the frigate sized USV. It is silly. Better to scatter the sensors and effectors across multiple hulls.

I assume you mean you "disagree on the frigate sized USV".

In that case, I agree with you: Anything unmanned has to be small and cheap - and entirely disposable even if only for security reasons (i.e. if we remotely note it is about to be boarded, or it itself notes that, or it loses contact with mama for a set amount of time, it blows itself to smithereens).

 

[Navy_Pete]

One thing these people pushing "optionally crewed vessels" forget is that damage to the ship when uncrewed, might mean a total loss, compared to the ship surviving if crewed and DC is taking place. Unless you are also building in a auto DC system, which will drive the price up and the maintenance costs as well.

Also things like basic vessel security is a challenge, so if you fit it out with things like weapon systems, detection and encrypted systems to communicate with your remote vehicle it's all exposed if someone gets onboard. So even if you build it relatively cheap (still in the hundreds of millions though) and assume it's disposable doesn't mean you can just forward deploy it somewhere and park it without worries.

Someone on the RN side was talking about this, and they were trying to explain this to BGHs who wanted to keep an optionally crewed vessel crewed during mine transits specifically for DC, which defeats the purpose of having a mine sweeper set up for optionally crewed if you keep people on during the highest hazard thing it does.

 

[Kirkhill]

A "fright" piece to tell us how badly we are doing.

How Russia’s naval rearmament has gone unnoticed

In this new world order of military burden sharing between America and Europe it's not clear the British Royal Navy is up to the task

responsiblestatecraft.org

Since 2011, Russia has taken delivery of 27 submarines, 6 frigates, 9 corvettes, 16 small missile ships, and other logistic support vessels. Many more are under construction and will arrive by the end of this decade. As the Russians say, “quantity has a quality all of its own.”

2025-2011 = 14 years

27 Submarines - 2/yr
6 Frigates - 1/2yr
9 Corvettes -3/4 yr
16 Small Missile Ships - 1/yr

...

These seem to be the same vessels that Russia is employing in the Black Sea.

....

Ukrainian kills (M and K) since 2022

5 Raptor patrol boats
1 Alligator LST (Saratov)
1 Slava Cruiser (Moskva)
1 Assault Boat (BK-16)
1 Landing Craft (Serna)
1 Corvette (Buyan-M Veliky Ustyug)
1 Rescue Tug (Vasily Bekh)
1 Minesweeper (Ivan Golubets - damaged)
1 Frigate (Admiral Makarov - damaged)
1 Intelligence Ship (Ivan Khurs - damaged)
1 Ropucha Landing Ship (Olenegorsky Gornyak - damaged)
1 Kilo Submarine (Rostov-on-Don - damaged)
1 Ropucha Landing Ship (Minsk - damaged)
1 Tunets patrol boat
1 22160 patrol ship (Sergey Kotov)
1 Karakurt corvette (Askold - damaged)
1 Landing Ship (Novocherkassk - destroyed)
1 Tarantul corvette (Ivanovets - sunk)
1 Ropucha Landing Ship (Tsezar Kunikov - sunk)
1 Mangust patrol boat (status unknown)
1 Tugboat (Saturn - sunk)

The damage was a result of USVs, UAVs and Cruise Missiles (UAVs by another name)

....

I know the Black Sea is not blue water but...

What does a frigate/corvette look like when operated with submarines, motherships, USVs, UUVs and UAVs with intercontinental range and persistent offboard sensors?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Also things like basic vessel security is a challenge, so if you fit it out with things like weapon systems, detection and encrypted systems to communicate with your remote vehicle it's all exposed if someone gets onboard. So even if you build it relatively cheap (still in the hundreds of millions though) and assume it's disposable doesn't mean you can just forward deploy it somewhere and park it without worries.

Someone on the RN side was talking about this, and they were trying to explain this to BGHs who wanted to keep an optionally crewed vessel crewed during mine transits specifically for DC, which defeats the purpose of having a mine sweeper set up for optionally crewed if you keep people on during the highest hazard thing it does.

Nothing like your systems going down and your fancy toy is now bobbing on the ocean with all that fancy gear. Because systems will never fail right?.......

 

[Lumber]

Also things like basic vessel security is a challenge, so if you fit it out with things like weapon systems, detection and encrypted systems to communicate with your remote vehicle it's all exposed if someone gets onboard. So even if you build it relatively cheap (still in the hundreds of millions though) and assume it's disposable doesn't mean you can just forward deploy it somewhere and park it without worries.

Someone on the RN side was talking about this, and they were trying to explain this to BGHs who wanted to keep an optionally crewed vessel crewed during mine transits specifically for DC, which defeats the purpose of having a mine sweeper set up for optionally crewed if you keep people on during the highest hazard thing it does.

Also, if your ship hits a mine, it's not DC teams you need, it's life boats.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Also, if your ship hits a mine, it's not DC teams you need, it's life boats.

Yeah, really makes it stupid to put people on a mine sweeper for mine sweeping but design it so it has the option of running with no crew onboard.

The sticker shock of reasonably capable ships, even small ones, makes it difficult to see 'optionally crewed' become a thing.

 

[Kirkhill]

Ukrainian sea drone shoots down Russian fighter jet in world first

Kyiv hails attack as a ‘historic moment’ as Ukraine again shows it is capable of turning tables on its better-resourced invaders

www.telegraph.co.uk

The Ukrainian waterborne drone reportedly fired an R-73 surface-to-air missile, which struck the $50 million fighter jet and caused it to catch fire and crash.

Ukraine said it used a Magura V7 sea drone, a 5.5m-long drone with a range of up to 1,800km.

Origin
Ukraine

Type
Sea drone

Range
500 mi

Max Speed
48mph

Unit cost
£205,000

Length
5.5m

 

[Furniture]

Ukrainian sea drone shoots down Russian fighter jet in world first

Kyiv hails attack as a ‘historic moment’ as Ukraine again shows it is capable of turning tables on its better-resourced invaders

www.telegraph.co.uk

View attachment 93114

Origin
Ukraine

Type
Sea drone

Range
500 mi

Max Speed
48mph

Unit cost
£205,000

Length
5.5m

Ukraine is in a desperate fight for survival, not planning a modern blue water navy.

What makes you think Canada, or other Western powers couldn't churn that sort of a system out if needed?

We've had a version of these since 2010... Hammerhead



It wouldn't take too much effort to make them into a weapon rather than a target if we actually needed to.

I feel like UAS/USV/UUS are the Bombers of the 1930s, a new miracle weapon that will make all other weapons obsolete. Except they didn't... They have a lot of uses, and they have changed modern warfare, but they are not a replacement for all other weapons systems/platforms.

 

[Underway]

Ukraine is in a desperate fight for survival, not planning a modern blue water navy.

What makes you think Canada, or other Western powers couldn't churn that sort of a system out if needed?

We've had a version of these since 2010... Hammerhead

View attachment 93131

It wouldn't take too much effort to make them into a weapon rather than a target if we actually needed to.

I feel like UAS/USV/UUS are the Bombers of the 1930s, a new miracle weapon that will make all other weapons obsolete. Except they didn't... They have a lot of uses, and they have changed modern warfare, but they are not a replacement for all other weapons systems/platforms.

Russian tactics have changed and they have figured out how to protect their ships from sea drones. Its a series of defensive layers (like all navy defences seem to be through most of history). Using their own UAV's to ensure nothing sneaks up on you is the first step.

But if you leave the protective bubble then there are risks you take.

 

[Furniture]

Russian tactics have changed and they have figured out how to protect their ships from sea drones. Its a series of defensive layers (like all navy defences seem to be through most of history). Using their own UAV's to ensure nothing sneaks up on you is the first step.

But if you leave the protective bubble then there are risks you take.

That makes a lot of sense, and neatly dovetail into the bomber comparison.

The first bombing raids caught people by surprise, but eventually Radar, improved GBAD, as well as improved fighters and night fighters equipped with radar made bombers less effective.