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May 2017 Manchester UK bombing (split fm Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition)

Bruce Monkhouse

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ariana-grande-concert-northern-england-1.4126934

'Number of confirmed fatalities' at Ariana Grande concert in U.K., say police
 

The Bread Guy

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ariana-grande-concert-northern-england-1.4126934

'Number of confirmed fatalities' at Ariana Grande concert in U.K., say police
More via Google News here.
 

tomahawk6

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22 dead and 59 wounded is the toll so far.One person has been arrested,expect to see more as the support cell is rounded up.
 

The Bread Guy

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And we have a split from the non-Muslim thread with this "#ISIS releases English-language version of claim for #Manchester bombing" - graphic from monitoring group Tweet attached.
 

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Colin Parkinson

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Apparently the worst terrorist attack since 2005, RIP to those taken to soon and my heart to the ones that remain.
 
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jollyjacktar

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Apparently this piece of shit was known by authorities.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4531940/Emergency-services-rush-Manchester-Arena.html  This really makes my blood boil, these bastards that are known and even on watch lists still walking the streets.  When will we wake the fuck up?
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

The difference between them and us is we have Rule of law, they have Rule of God. I much prefer the first one.

Meanwhile, we must all hope that those injured get well sooner rather than later, and pass our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims.
 

GK .Dundas

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

The difference between them and us is we have Rule of law, they have Rule of God. I much prefer the first one.

Meanwhile, we must all hope that those injured get well sooner rather than later, and pass our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims.

Well said ,sir !

Edit by PC to fix formatting error in quote tag.
 

The Bread Guy

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

The difference between them and us is we have Rule of law, they have Rule of God. I much prefer the first one.

Meanwhile, we must all hope that those injured get well sooner rather than later, and pass our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims.
:goodpost:
 
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jollyjacktar

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

The difference between them and us is we have Rule of law, they have Rule of God. I much prefer the first one.

Meanwhile, we must all hope that those injured get well sooner rather than later, and pass our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims.

As far as I am concerned, those who would be a danger to the rest of us such as this bastard obviously was, should not be running around and able to blow 8 year olds to bits, sorry.  Yes, we have the rule of law to protect society and as far as I am concerned, it the law needs to be changed to do so, the so be it.  Those that protect us in some cases need to have the fetters that bind them and make it impossible loosened.  I would say there are at least 100 families in the UK who would agree with me today.
 

daftandbarmy

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Lessons on how to fight terror

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/
 

tomahawk6

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daftandbarmy said:
Lessons on how to fight terror

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/

You have an active fifth column in much of Europe. How do you solve the problem ? They use our laws and pc society as a shield from which to launch attacks at will. The security services end up reacting rather than being proactive.
 

FJAG

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tomahawk6 said:
You have an active fifth column in much of Europe. How do you solve the problem ? They use our laws and pc society as a shield from which to launch attacks at will. The security services end up reacting rather than being proactive.

I've always had a simplistic way of looking at this rooted in the law of armed conflict. When you go to war with a state then whatever member of the armed element of that state that comes into your control is detained for the duration of the conflict even where they have never fired a shot or committed any act of war themselves. Merely being a member is enough to justify detention as a POW. Those who have actually committed war crimes themselves can be tried and punished for those crimes.

My view is that ordinary criminal law works sufficiently for ordinary criminals but once you start dealing with international mobs of criminals and their wanabes you have to apply something similar to the law of armed conflict. Those individuals who are members of, supportive of, finance or otherwise facilitate acts of terrorism by such groups as ISIS should be detained until the end of hostilities whether or not they have actually committed an act of terrorism themselves.

The "law against terrorism" obviously needs to be different from the LOAC in that one does not wish to give a veneer of legitimacy to terrorists which the LOAC and POW status as we know it now does but I think it's time that we admitted when there are organizations that number in the tens of thousand and who have significant financial and weapons resources, then the ordinary criminal law and its convoluted processes (even when modified to include terrorist acts) is insufficient.

:cheers:



 

Kirkhill

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Meanwhile:

Gerry Adams sends his condolences.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/808317/Manchester-bombing-terror-explosion-Gerry-Adams-IRA-arena-attack-Ariana-Grande

I'm sure that Mancunians appreciate his concern.

That's one you got wrong there D&B.
 
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jollyjacktar

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FJAG said:
I've always had a simplistic way of looking at this rooted in the law of armed conflict. When you go to war with a state then whatever member of the armed element of that state that comes into your control is detained for the duration of the conflict even where they have never fired a shot or committed any act of war themselves. Merely being a member is enough to justify detention as a POW. Those who have actually committed war crimes themselves can be tried and punished for those crimes.

My view is that ordinary criminal law works sufficiently for ordinary criminals but once you start dealing with international mobs of criminals and their wanabes you have to apply something similar to the law of armed conflict. Those individuals who are members of, supportive of, finance or otherwise facilitate acts of terrorism by such groups as ISIS should be detained until the end of hostilities whether or not they have actually committed an act of terrorism themselves.

The "law against terrorism" obviously needs to be different from the LOAC in that one does not wish to give a veneer of legitimacy to terrorists which the LOAC and POW status as we know it now does but I think it's time that we admitted when there are organizations that number in the tens of thousand and who have significant financial and weapons resources, then the ordinary criminal law and its convoluted processes (even when modified to include terrorist acts) is insufficient.

:cheers:

:goodpost:

This.  This is what I mean by wake the fuck up OGBD et al.
 

Kirkhill

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Some thoughts on what to do with "the opposition"

Shoot them out of hand at the scene.  (Law of Armed Conflict)
Gratuitously slaughter them by hanging them in droves or pinning them to their doors as their houses burn around them (Worked with the Grahams and Armstrongs)
Incarcerate them in prison hulks and dungeons and let disease and starvation solve the problem (Highlanders)
Ship them overseas and tell them never to come back again (the Irish to Botany Bay)
Press them into the army and navy and use them to fight other people's wars.
Offer them land in someone else's country.

Or, incarcerate them for the duration (the Huguenot Wars lasted from 1520 to 1998 - Stockholm Bloodbath to Good Friday Agreement) at taxpayers expense, providing 3 hots and a cot, tv, recreation and educational facilities.

Or, treat it like background noise and be prepared to manage the chaos independently.



 

Colin Parkinson

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daftandbarmy said:
Lessons on how to fight terror

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/

Actually the UK done fairly well out of it's Counter insurgency/terrorism programs, basically won in NI and definitely won in Malaysia
 
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jollyjacktar

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Let the Gurkha pay some of these known folks nocturnal visits ala Malaysia/North Africa/Falklands...  That sends a message they'd understand.
 

daftandbarmy

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Colin P said:
Actually the UK done fairly well out of it's Counter insurgency/terrorism programs, basically won in NI and definitely won in Malaysia

It's been a program of 'make it up as you go along', and has resulted in thousands of senseless deaths while preventing thousands of others. But it's the only one that has ever, kind of, worked.... whatever it's called.

But that doesn't make it any easier to see 8 year old girls brutally killed though, does it? And that's the hardest part of these newest battles: winning them without using revenge as the key motivator.

'Steel my soldier's hearts', indeed.
 
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