May 2017 Manchester UK bombing (split fm Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition)

[daftandbarmy]

A poetic two fingers to the terrs….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBWxcbpB8g

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

It's been a program of 'make it up as you go along', and has resulted in thousands of senseless deaths while preventing thousands of others. But it's the only one that has ever, kind of, worked.... whatever it's called.

But that doesn't make it any easier to see 8 year old girls brutally killed though, does it? And that's the hardest part of these newest battles: winning them without using revenge as the key motivator.

'Steel my soldier's hearts', indeed.

As far as Colonial Powers are concerned, the Brits play the long game better than anyone else and it's mostly because they've had a few hard losses (Ireland/South Africa/India).  The French learned similar lessons, albeit later.  It took Algeria to make them realize Shadow Diplomacy and Shady Middlemen work better than occupying armies. 

Fighting Terrorists/Insurgents/Freedom Fighters/Guerillas/Criminals (whatever you feel like calling them) isn't complicated in theory.  Kill the leadership, Isolate them from the population and take away their resources.  The problem is that rarely do all three of these get targeted at the same time or at all.

The war against Islamic extremist organizations will never be won because we categorically refuse to dismantle the considerable financial muscle backing these organizations.  A small example of this is Opium production in Afghanistan.  From 1996 to 2001 the Taliban actually banned opium cultivation nearly eradicating its production in early 2001 and were openly praised by the US Government for doing so.  See the following article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/world/taliban-s-ban-on-poppy-a-success-us-aides-say.html

What was unknown at the time was the Taliban had been secretly stockpiling refined opium, which has a very long shelf life (decades if stored properly) and had created an artificial glut in the market which caused the price of illegal opiates to skyrocket.  When war broke out following the September 11 attacks, the Taliban immediately legalized opium cultivation again and flooded the market with their surplus which was sold at a very high price giving the Talban a massive injection of cash.  Opium production in Afghanistan has doubled to what it was when the United States entered Afghanistan and it grows yearly.  They say a picture paints a thousand words and it's no secret that the war in Afghanistan really flared up in 2006, right as ISAF expanded across Afghanistan and Taliban kicked production in to overdrive with only brief dips since then.

Afghanistan Opium Production by Year:

Of course, destroying the opium crops would "hurt the farmers" and prevent us from winning the "hearts and minds" (whatever that means) but considering the US government has spent over a trillion dollars on the war in Afghanistan alone (In a country with a GDP of only $64 billion annually) perhaps our strategy was/is deeply flawed?  It's been the equivalent of pissing money down the toilet. 

What we should have done was used the tanks to burn every single poppy field to the ground, taken 3/4 of that money we spent on fruitless military adventurism and put it towards actual economic development and BUYING the hearts and minds.  We systematically failed to isolate the Taliban from their cash flow, cash they use everyday to buy weapons, bribe government officials, pay their fighters, etc.  We have massively misused our considerable financial and military might, the result is pretty conclusively a loss. 

The same could be said for our dealings with the Saudis.  Until we stop buying Saudi oil, attacks in our cities will continue unabated and Terror Organizations will continue to receive funding.  How many citizens lives is a barrel of Saudi crude worth?

Note:

A good book to read about The drug trade in Afghanistan is called "The Dark Art: My Undercover Life in Global Narco-Terrorism".  It's written by a retired DEA Special Agent named Edward Follis who served as the head of the DEA in Afghanistan. 

https://www.amazon.ca/Dark-Art-Undercover-Global-Narco-terrorism/dp/1592408931

 

[jollyjacktar]

Morrissey attacks politicians and the Queen over Manchester terrorism response

The Manchester-born singer, Morrissey, has hit out at politicians for their reaction to the bombing in his hometown that has killed 22 people and injured 59 more.

In his statement, the former Smiths frontman claimed that politicians are safe from attacks, while the rest of the country is left vulnerable. The MP Jo Cox was murdered by a rightwing extremist in June last year.

Morrissey cited government immigration policy among his complaints saying the prime minister would never change her immigration policy in the light of the attacks. Police have said that the bomber, Salman Abedi, was British-born and from Manchester.

He also appeared to suggest that a desire to adhere to “political correctness” was behind politicians’ unwillingness to specify that the attack was the work of an Islamist extremist, rather than simply an extremist. The same claim is often made by people on the far-right.


“In modern Britain everyone seems petrified to officially say what we all say in private. Politicians tell us they are unafraid, but they are never the victims. How easy to be unafraid when one is protected from the line of fire. The people have no such protections,” the singer wrote on his Facebook page.

“Manchester mayor Andy Burnham says the attack is the work of an ‘extremist’. An extreme what? An extreme rabbit?”

Criticising the prime minister, he claimed that “her own life is lived in a bullet-proof bubble, and she evidently does not need to identify any young people today in Manchester morgues”.

The musician added: “Also, ‘will not break us’ means that the tragedy will not break her, or her policies on immigration. The young people of Manchester are already broken - thanks all the same, Theresa.”

Morrissey also criticised the London mayor, Sadiq Khan, who he said had failed to condemn the Islamic State group after it claimed responsibility for the attack. A link to the terrorist organisation has not been confirmed by the security services, who are still working to identify whether or not Abedi worked alone or as part of a cell.

In a statement released on Tuesday, Khan said: “London stands united with the great city of Manchester today after this barbaric and sickening attack. This was a cowardly act of terrorism that targeted a concert attended by thousands of children and young people.”

Also in line for criticism from Morrissey was the Queen, who he said had received “absurd praise for her ‘strong words’ against the attack, yet she does not cancel today’s garden party at Buckingham Palace - for which no criticism is allowed in the Britain of free press”.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/celebrity/morrissey-attacks-politicians-and-the-queen-over-manchester-terrorism-response/ar-BBBtsZu?li=AAggNb9&ocid=iehp

 

[tomahawk6]

In all fairness to the Queen she lived through the Blitz and its horrors first hand. I think not giving in to terrorism by keeping to the scheduled events is important.

 

[Journeyman]

Morrissey attacks politicians and the Queen over Manchester terrorism response

  ???    And...?
Someone with supposedly celebrity status yammering about a topic in which they know nothing;  the first three substantive paragraphs of the article were each his statement, followed by it being debunked by the writer.
As for the Queen cancelling a garden party... now that  would send terrorists some sort of message... I guess  :dunno:  I'll have to wait until the Dixie Chicks weigh in on this one......


As for some of the suggestions here....
I'm assuming that everyone is up to speed on Bill C-36 (Anti-Terrorism Act, 2001), Bill C-44 (Protection of Canada from Terrorists Act, 2014), and Bill C-51 (Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015).  All were passed in the shadow of a recent terrorist action; many of their provisions, when used in court, were overturned as being unconstitutional.  That's a problem when people try to rush through quick 'fixes' when angry/scared.  Personally, I see a very good reason that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms forms the first part of our Constitution Act.

For example, taking incarceration until the end of conflict, without trial, based on someone being known to hold extremist views....
Will implementing that:
a)  be a propaganda/radicalizing tool against the currently undecided, being further evidence of "how we are oppressors"?
b)  be remotely effective with a youth considering becoming a suicide bomber -- "gosh, I could end up in jail; I better turn my life around"?
c)  perhaps see an increase of people deemed suspiciously extremist?

....in effect, we would move closer to behaving like the very extremists whose behaviour we cannot comprehend.  This is Canada; I like to think we're better than that.  It's lunacy to even suggest such behaviour.


Nietzsche: He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.  And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

Yoda: Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force.  But beware.  Anger, fear, aggression.  The dark side are they.  Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

An additional point on T6's historical fact that contradicts Morrissey's view of the Queen as safe in her bubble: Morrissey should remember that, throughout the Troubles, the Royal family, all of them, were always at the top of target lists of the IRA and Provisional IRA. They lived under constant threat of assassination, being bombed or other assorted ill treatment from these lovely people.

 

[jollyjacktar]

  ???    And...?
Someone with supposedly celebrity status yammering about a topic in which they know nothing;  the first three substantive paragraphs of the article were each his statement, followed by it being debunked by the writer.
As for the Queen cancelling a garden party... now that  would send terrorists some sort of message... I guess  :dunno:  I'll have to wait until the Dixie Chicks weigh in on this one......

That was just someone's opinion.  He has one, I have one, you have one.... everybody does.  And...? 

 

[Journeyman]

That was just someone's opinion.  He has one, I have one, you have one.... everybody does.  And...?

Hey, you posted it; I gather you thought it had some value that I obviously missed.... besides his having been in a band (I gather)... even though his opinions were shown not to have any factual basis. 
(It's my old hobby-horse about 'opinion versus informed opinion').


Maybe we just post these banners everywhere; that'll bring the terrorists to their senses!  :nod:

http://i.imgur.com/7RPAKwy.jpg  [NSFW, so you have to click on it yourself]

 

[jollyjacktar]

He is just one of I am sure many celebs who will be coming out of the woodwork and have the platform to get their opinions out there (unlike us). 

I will say in his defence that he has more of a dog in the fight than I do as he is from Manchester, British and closer to the fire than I am.  I do agree with him to some degree as well.  Those politicians etc do have resources to protect them better than the great unwashed do from such threats (and for good reason).  Much the same POV (as some folks here have opined) that our PM doesn't really have a connection to what it is like to not have money or a job as he has been insulated from these worries by virtue of coming from money to begin with.  I know from my wife's side of the family (who do live in London), that the nieces and nephews are a little more nervous nowadays when they are out in the street as this shit is happening out of the blue and they could suddenly find themselves in the middle of it (without the added protection of a armoured limo or security detail around them, for example).  So, yes, I have the opinion that some of Morrissy's, points are valid to some degree.  :2c: 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Not in the non-muslim terrorist attacks thread anymore?

Split & moved once ISIS claimed responsibility.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Kirkhill]

On the subject of ID of the terrorist:

This from the British Home Secretary

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/amber-rudd-criticises-us-leaking-manchester-terror-attack-information/

The US is becoming an unreliable partner.  And I think there is a lot of blame to go around there.  Not just the political administration, but also the entrenched bureaucracy who are expected to be more professional in these matters.  The press?  I don't blame them.  They are scorpions doing that which is in their nature.

But I am concerned that the US is going to have to go through a stable-cleaning.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

  ???    And...?
Someone with supposedly celebrity status yammering about a topic in which they know nothing;  the first three substantive paragraphs of the article were each his statement, followed by it being debunked by the writer.
As for the Queen cancelling a garden party... now that  would send terrorists some sort of message... I guess  :dunno:  I'll have to wait until the Dixie Chicks weigh in on this one......


As for some of the suggestions here....
I'm assuming that everyone is up to speed on Bill C-36 (Anti-Terrorism Act, 2001), Bill C-44 (Protection of Canada from Terrorists Act, 2014), and Bill C-51 (Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015).  All were passed in the shadow of a recent terrorist action; many of their provisions, when used in court, were overturned as being unconstitutional.  That's a problem when people try to rush through quick 'fixes' when angry/scared.  Personally, I see a very good reason that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms forms the first part of our Constitution Act.

For example, taking incarceration until the end of conflict, without trial, based on someone being known to hold extremist views....
Will implementing that:
a)  be a propaganda/radicalizing tool against the currently undecided, being further evidence of "how we are oppressors"?
b)  be remotely effective with a youth considering becoming a suicide bomber -- "gosh, I could end up in jail; I better turn my life around"?
c)  perhaps see an increase of people deemed suspiciously extremist?

....in effect, we would move closer to behaving like the very extremists whose behaviour we cannot comprehend.  This is Canada; I like to think we're better than that.  It's lunacy to even suggest such behaviour.


Nietzsche: He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.  And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

Yoda: Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force.  But beware.  Anger, fear, aggression.  The dark side are they.  Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

Great post Journeyman, blanket incarceration without justification doesn't work and will probably have the opposite effect of what we are trying to achieve which is a society based around Peace, Order and Good Government.

Mass incarceration is partially responsible for the creation of some of the most violent criminal gangs on earth today:

"ISIS Was Born In An American Detention Facility (And It Wasn’t Gitmo)"
https://www.lawfareblog.com/isis-was-born-american-detention-facility-and-it-wasnt-gitmo

"Brazil crime gang has spread through most of country"
http://www.emirates247.com/brazil-crime-gang-has-spread-through-most-of-country-2012-11-25-1.484727

"Mexican Mafia: The Most Dangerous Gang
Surenos you encounter are taking their orders from a higher authority"

http://www.policemag.com/blog/gangs/story/2010/04/mexican-mafia-the-most-dangerous-gang.aspx

Mass incarceration leads to criminals becoming more organized and more dangerous  through communalism and concentration.

 

[The Bread Guy]

He is just one of I am sure many celebs who will be coming out of the woodwork and have the platform to get their opinions out there (unlike us) ...

And these have to be taken with a significant grain of salt so soon after such attacks, just like the memes already out there (see attached) suggesting the performer may be partly to blame for this -- well played, especially so soon afterwards  : ... #OpinionVersusInformedOpinion

Meanwhile, in other developments:

• "Following Manchester bombing, soldiers deployed across UK" (Christian Science Monitor*)
• "Manchester bomber was part of a network: police" (Reuters - UK wire service)
• "Manchester attack: Three more arrests in bomber investigation" (BBC)

* - While owned by the First Church of Christ, Scientist, it really is (IMHO) a decent, non-evangelical, non-sensationalist source of international news - with a few Pulitzers under its belt.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Nietzsche: He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.  And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

East London addendum: when the monster has you on your knees, reach up, grab its balls, and yank as hard as you can.

 

[The Bread Guy]

And from the "not all celebrities are necessarily idiots" file ...
"Manchester City’s Muslim superstar Yaya Toure, agent donate £100K (CDN $174K) to bomb attack's victims"

 

[tomahawk6]

Eight in custody so far including the father,two brothers and a woman.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think there will come a point in time where enough people will get fed up with Islam and the whole jihadist thing and start thinking on a Hiroshima level lack of fucks to give. 

IMO this crap compounded enough will threaten our species.  I suspect as these attacks happen more and more in North America we will notice a change. Then again Sweden Germany seem under seige but don't seem to be changing their tune very much so maybe I'm wrong.

Still, I'm okay with putting on monster face camo if it means I can lessen the chances of my 7 year old getting smash to pieces at a Ariana grande concert.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think there will come a point in time where enough people will get fed up with Islam and the whole jihadist thing and start thinking on a Hiroshima level lack of ****s to give. 

IMO this crap compounded enough will threaten our species.  I suspect as these attacks happen more and more in North America we will notice a change. Then again Sweden Germany seem under seige but don't seem to be changing their tune very much so maybe I'm wrong.

Still, I'm okay with putting on monster face camo if it means I can lessen the chances of my 7 year old getting smash to pieces at a Ariana grande concert.

Unfortunately for we club swingers these wars are usually fought, and won or lost, in the shadows. Although there are now soldiers on the streets, paradoxically to give citizens a sense of security, their utility in these kinds of conflicts is largely nil.

Building wide and deep ranging intelligence/ informant networks and 'trap lines' is all part of the solution, along with boundaryless, mutually beneficial security service and diplomatic type connections with a variety of foreign countries, some of whom we would publicly deem 'unpalatable'.

After one tour in Belfast we were told that the 'sneaky peekies' identified hundreds of terrorist operations that were spooled up against us, with only a dozen or so being successfully launched. We 'walking figure 11s' could only take credit for a small portion of those misses. In the same way, in Mainland Britain right now, for every bomb that gets through I'm guessing that dozens have been thwarted/ prevented in one way or another. And we'll never be told about how that all panned out, hopefully.

 

[brihard]

Unfortunately for we club swingers these wars are usually fought, and won or lost, in the shadows. Although there are now soldiers on the streets, paradoxically to give citizens a sense of security, their utility in these kids of conflicts is largely nil.

Building wide and deep ranging intelligence/ informant networks and 'trap lines' is all part of the solution, along with boundaryless, mutually beneficial security service and diplomatic type connections with a variety of foreign countries, some of whom we would publicly deem 'unpalatable'.

After one tour in Belfast we were told that the 'sneaky peekies' identified hundreds of terrorist operations that were spooled up against us, with only a dozen or so being successfully launched. We 'walking figure 11s' could only take credit for a small portion of those misses. In the same way, in Mainland Britain right now, for every bomb that gets through I'm guessing that dozens have been thwarted/ prevented in one way or another. And we'll never be told about how that all panned out, hopefully.

Yup.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=daftandbarmy]

After one tour in Belfast we were told that the 'sneaky peekies' identified hundreds of terrorist operations that were spooled up against us, with only a dozen or so being successfully launched. We 'walking figure 11s' could only take credit for a small portion of those misses. In the same way, in Mainland Britain right now, for every bomb that gets through I'm guessing that dozens have been thwarted/ prevented in one way or another. And we'll never be told about how that all panned out, hopefully.
[/quote]

No disagreement here.