May 2017 Manchester UK bombing (split fm Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition)

[The Bread Guy]

... As for how would I feel if I was picked off the streets by error.  I have more faith in those who are watching that they're not going to pluck me unless I am up to no good ...

I have a ton of faith in those protecting us, too, but mistakes happen -- ask these guys -- and different mistakes will happen if rules are changed.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I have a ton of faith in those protecting us, too, but mistakes happen -- ask these guys -- and different mistakes will happen if rules are changed.

Torture at Abu Ghraib:  American soldiers brutalized Iraqis. How far up does the responsibility go?

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjE6-Xd54vUAhXIi1QKHe7gCq8QFghAMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newyorker.com%2Fmagazine%2F2004%2F05%2F10%2Ftorture-at-abu-ghraib&usg=AFQjCNHeH_YR13kuC1Ds4lelfbyJyYvF4Q&sig2=_Dp2H3aKh_obnfv_GygmlQ

Commission of Inquiry Concerning Certain Activities of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police - second report, volume 2 :

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi5ouD554vUAhVM7oMKHcRXALIQFggxMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublications.gc.ca%2Fpub%3Fid%3D471402%26sl%3D0&usg=AFQjCNEXP28T4Sh3nbDdcF2axkTLDCdCLg&sig2=8CmZVaXyKoF2WVVT0nxjuw

 

[jollyjacktar]

The red tape exists for the bit highlighted in yellow.  Lets take Northern Ireland as an example.  The British Military and Intelligence Community has been receiving all sorts of flak for crap they pulled during the Troubles, etc.  False flag attacks, assassinations, shooting RUC Officers, the list goes on and on. 

One of the reasons for the creation of CSIS was as a result of illegal activity conducted by the RCMP Directorate of Security and Intelligence/Security Service.  We need to be very careful giving Law Enforcement Agencies broad powers as it could have unintended consequences.

Yes, I am quite aware of why the Secret Squirrels were shutdown and CSIS stood up.  Of course, it was more or less smoke and mirrors in that they took away the former Mounties guns and badges and gave them trench coats instead.  The same guys were doing the same job under a different name albeit with more supervision, that's all. 

You chain up your sheepdog too much, he'll not be as effective at guarding the sheep when a wolf pack comes calling one day. 

They aren't broad generalizations, they are facts.  Western Europe is probably safer than it's ever been in Human History.  Citizens have a far less chance of meeting a violent death than they ever have in spite of the media sensationalism.  This isn't even the most violent terrorist period in Europe, the 1970s to 1990s were far more violent.

 

Sure, at the present there are no major states in Europe who are eyeing the others with the thought of shanking them in the shower.  So, the chance, just now, of a repeat of that scale of major armed conflict is low.  However, there are other pressures building up right now with the insane intake of all these migrants.  Some of these migrants are wearing out their welcome pretty swiftly on the backs of the Europeans who were there first.  Some of these migrants are not "honest" migrants but outliers of the barbarians and are making their presence felt.  It's not all Sunny Ways in Europe right now, else politicians like Mme. Le Pen would be getting SFA for votes.  These attacks are a relatively new phase of the migrant wave and perhaps your scale might be blown out of the water over the next few years.  I honestly hope not.

It's easy to say we're less likely to die now than we were 70 years ago.  No kidding.  Seeing as a Second World War scale conflict isn't on the go at the moment, that is a pretty safe bet.  Of course that doesn't matter a fig to the little girls from Monday night, now does it?

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes, because it was the Democrats that leaked Israeli intelligence to the Russian Ambassador.

And who leaked the info to the public?  I'm sorry JMT.  There is no equivalence. One man is paid to make that decision.  Everyone else is a kibbitzer.

 

[Loachman]

Conclusion: Fret not, the future is bright. We might have a bomb go off here or there, but overall, you're less likely to die today than you were 70 years ago.

And ten years from now? Twenty? Fifty?

More single, young, Muslim males are entering Europe constantly, and they have little regard for societal norms, customs, and laws.

Muslim families tend to be larger than Western ones, which are too small to maintain population levels let alone growth.

This rapid demographic change will lead to more bombs, more truck attacks, more beheadings, more rapes, more assaults, more fear, less freedom, and economic loss.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Yes, I am quite aware of why the Secret Squirrels were shutdown and CSIS stood up.  Of course, it was more or less smoke and mirrors in that they took away the former Mounties guns and badges and gave them trench coats instead.  The same guys were doing the same job under a different name albeit with more supervision, that's all. 

You chain up your sheepdog too much, he'll not be as effective at guarding the sheep when a wolf pack comes calling one day. 

Sure, at the present there are no major states in Europe who are eyeing the others with the thought of shanking them in the shower.  So, the chance, just now, of a repeat of that scale of major armed conflict is low.  However, there are other pressures building up right now with the insane intake of all these migrants.  Some of these migrants are wearing out their welcome pretty swiftly on the backs of the Europeans who were there first.  Some of these migrants are not "honest" migrants but outliers of the barbarians and are making their presence felt.  It's not all Sunny Ways in Europe right now, else politicians like Mme. Le Pen would be getting SFA for votes.  These attacks are a relatively new phase of the migrant wave and perhaps your scale might be blown out of the water over the next few years.  I honestly hope not.

It's easy to say we're less likely to die now than we were 70 years ago.  No kidding.  Seeing as a Second World War scale conflict isn't on the go at the moment, that is a pretty safe bet.  Of course that doesn't matter a fig to the little girls from Monday night, now does it?

Appeals to emotion shouldn't be made when trying to make rational decisions pertaining to matters of security, we can leave those sophist forms of argumentation to the politicians.

As for Mme Le Pen and her ilk, all relics of France's colonial past.  Mme Le Pen's father founded the National Front along with a bunch of former OAS members (who were themselves terrorists).  France is paying for their dirty practices in Africa and elsewhere.  They massacred Muslims in Algeria utilizing all sorts of Barbaric methods to enforce their will, they actively supported genocidaires in Rwanda. 

They, along with every other Colonial Power have blood all over themselves.  Point is everybody is dirty in their own way, best thing we can do as people is admit as much and not participate in similar heinous acts. 

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/hard-swallow-truth-safe-terror-ever-likely/

It's hard to swallow, but the truth is we are about as safe from terror as we are ever likely to be

The biggest lie of the modern state:  We will keep you safe.

I have some ancient British books - ie they were published before the 1950's. 

The Universal Book of Hobbies and Handicrafts (ca 1930) has a chapter on self-defence, full of all sorts of Steed of the Avengers type advice on how to knock somebody off the running-boards of your car, or keeping them at bay with your brolly, or stripping their jacket down their arms to immobilize them, or tying them up with a single shoelace (their's of course - face down on the ground, two thumbs tied together behind the back with their leg pinned between their arms) --- all without messing your hair or having to remove the bowler.

A few others I have seen all convey the same message:  the world is a dangerous place and you should be prepared to manage it.  Sticks, clubs, guns are all fair game.  Strangely knives were seen as very unsporting.

But post WW2 the movement has been away from the citizen managing on their own with the police offering assistance to a promise that the police will look after you - and you can stop playing at cowboys with those silly guns.

I think the biggest shock, when dealing with this terrorism situation, is that many folks, especially younger ones, have come to accept that they are safe......

Most places aren't.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/hard-swallow-truth-safe-terror-ever-likely/


The biggest lie of the modern state:  We will keep you safe.

I have some ancient British books - ie they were published before the 1950's. 

The Universal Book of Hobbies and Handicrafts (ca 1930) has a chapter on self-defence, full of all sorts of Steed of the Avengers type advice on how to knock somebody off the running-boards of your car, or keeping them at bay with your brolly, or stripping their jacket down their arms to immobilize them, or tying them up with a single shoelace (their's of course - face down on the ground, two thumbs tied together behind the back with their leg pinned between their arms) --- all without messing your hair or having to remove the bowler.

A few others I have seen all convey the same message:  the world is a dangerous place and you should be prepared to manage it.  Sticks, clubs, guns are all fair game.  Strangely knives were seen as very unsporting.

But post WW2 the movement has been away from the citizen managing on their own with the police offering assistance to a promise that the police will look after you - and you can stop playing at cowboys with those silly guns.

I think the biggest shock, when dealing with this terrorism situation, is that many folks, especially younger ones, have come to accept that they are safe......

Most places aren't.

Completely agree with your point Chris, it's because First World Countries outsource everything: violence, pollution, manufacturing, etc... we have no problems because we give them to everyone else.

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/loose-lipped-americans-cannot-allowed-put-counter-terrorist/

Loose-lipped Americans cannot be allowed to put our counter-terrorist efforts at risk
TIMOTHY STAFFORD

Research by Washington Post reporter Dana Priest found that by 2010, 850,000 Americans were in possession of top-secret security clearances,

Now, if I remember correctly, I had a Top Secret clearance as a young, and newly joined, subbie long ago and far away.

I also recall that there were some really intriguing levels above mine of which I heard rumours.  Things like Cosmic and Ultra and ....  Kind of like being informed that you have your Third Degree and thinking you are top of the heap only to find their are 30 more degrees behind the curtain.

If previous administrations have "discounted" Top Secret to bargain basement status is it too much to expect that a newer, higher classification, with a much narrower distribution, might be in the offing?

 

[Kat Stevens]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/hard-swallow-truth-safe-terror-ever-likely/


The biggest lie of the modern state:  We will keep you safe.

I have some ancient British books - ie they were published before the 1950's. 

The Universal Book of Hobbies and Handicrafts (ca 1930) has a chapter on self-defence, full of all sorts of Steed of the Avengers type advice on how to knock somebody off the running-boards of your car, or keeping them at bay with your brolly, or stripping their jacket down their arms to immobilize them, or tying them up with a single shoelace (their's of course - face down on the ground, two thumbs tied together behind the back with their leg pinned between their arms) --- all without messing your hair or having to remove the bowler.

A few others I have seen all convey the same message:  the world is a dangerous place and you should be prepared to manage it.  Sticks, clubs, guns are all fair game.  Strangely knives were seen as very unsporting.

But post WW2 the movement has been away from the citizen managing on their own with the police offering assistance to a promise that the police will look after you - and you can stop playing at cowboys with those silly guns.

I think the biggest shock, when dealing with this terrorism situation, is that many folks, especially younger ones, have come to accept that they are safe......

Most places aren't.

The galling part of this is that those of us who are willing and able to protect themselves, are vigorously investigated and prosecuted when they do. I live in a rural county that is 75km north to south, and about 65km east to west. There is one cop on duty at night. When seconds count, the police are a half hour away.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

Totally agree with you, but in this case the bomber was known to intelligence/security agencies and had in the past made statements about "suicide bombings being okay." In fact, a couple of his best friends phoned the terrorist hot line expressing concern about his statements. 

Link Here.

And by the way, I hope you don't live in Ontario because our glorious leaders are proposing that police, under the guise of combating impaired driving, will be allowed to pull drivers over at random without due clause.

 

[Kirkhill]

https://www.legalline.ca/legal-answers/police-powers-to-stop-vehicles-and-question-drivers/

I first moved to Alberta in August of 1980. My first Check Stop was probably in September 1980 - with the Christmas and New Year's Check Stops becoming something of a tradition.

Meh.

 

[Haggis]

The belief that our law enforcement and security agencies can protect us is a myth.  People have by and large bought into that myth and blithely go about their everyday lives in blissful ignorance to what's going on around them, good or bad, until something happens before their very eyes.  (Then, rather than intervene, they whip out their smartphones... but that's another topic.)

In order to perpetuate that myth, our security services have to be effective/(lucky) 100% of the time.  in order to destroy that myth, at least at the local or regional level, the bad guys have to be lucky once.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And ten years from now? Twenty? Fifty?

More single, young, Muslim males are entering Europe constantly, and they have little regard for societal norms, customs, and laws.

Muslim families tend to be larger than Western ones, which are too small to maintain population levels let alone growth.

This rapid demographic change will lead to more bombs, more truck attacks, more beheadings, more rapes, more assaults, more fear, less freedom, and economic loss.

As long as my family tree doesn't have to fight the Germans or Japanese again, I'm good

 

[Lumber]

The belief that our law enforcement and security agencies can protect us is a myth.  People have by and large bought into that myth and blithely go about their everyday lives in blissful ignorance to what's going on around them, good or bad, until something happens before their very eyes.  (Then, rather than intervene, they whip out their smartphones... but that's another topic.)

In order to perpetuate that myth, our security services have to be effective/(lucky) 100% of the time.  in order to destroy that myth, at least at the local or regional level, the bad guys have to be lucky once.

This is the entire basis for all society! Everything (including the cake) is a lie! It's all smoke and mirrors; you're never truly safe. Even you guys who "are willing and able to protect themselves" are pathetically vulnerable. Even if we had concealed carry in Canada, nothing would stop someone with severe mental issues from walking up to you from behind as you walk down some cute small town, slitting your throat and hacking your head off. Even if we banned all immigrants, Muslim or otherwise, nothing you do could stop some assh*le with (insert political/religious agenda here) from blowing up a home made bomb as you stand in line for the next Star Wars movie.

No amount of personal protection, government, law, security or military action will create a society whereby you are 100% safe all the time. We have to decide what we think is an acceptable level of risk compared against an acceptable level of freedom, and then spend our lives "believing" that we are 100% safe, even though deep down we know we're not. Yes, were being blithely ignorant, but what the f*kk is the point of living if you're going to be scared, cynical and paranoid all the time?

 

[ModlrMike]

Yes, were being blithely ignorant, but what the f*kk is the point of living if you're going to be scared, cynical and paranoid all the time?

It's not paranoia when they truly are out to get you.

 

[brihard]

And by the way, I hope you don't live in Ontario because our glorious leaders are proposing that police, under the guise of combating impaired driving, will be allowed to pull drivers over at random without due clause.

Not at all accurate. First, bill C-46 is federal, not provincial. It would be a criminal code amendment. Secondly, it would give police no new powers to stop vehicles. The proposed change that I think you think you're referring to is that where police have already lawfully come into contact with the driver of a motor vehicle (e.g., pull it over for a traffic offense, or at an accident or what have you), they would have the ability to demand a roadside breath test. Presently police need to have a reasonable suspicion that a person is operating a motor vehicle with alcohol in their body to do that test; this law would essentially adopt the Australian mode of compulsory breath tests on demand at roadside. It practice, Canadian police are mostly busy enough that you would likely only see this used at accidents or where someone has made a really stupid driving move in front of a cop.

 

[Lumber]

It's not paranoia when they truly are out to get you.

I see what you did there... ;D

 

[dimsum]

I somehow doubt that no one would have been "taken to task" had it been Canadian.

RAF crew write 'love from Manchester' on bomb destined for Islamic State target

A photograph has emerged of an RAF bomb with the message “love from Manchester” written on it after the Ariana Grande concert suicide bombing.

The RAF confirmed the photograph, which has been widely shared on social media, was genuine and showed a message on a Paveway IV bomb loaded on a British jet carrying out air strikes from RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus.

There had earlier been accusations that the photo was a fake. An RAF spokesperson said: “The RAF can confirm the photo was genuine”.

An RAF source said: “The sentiment of the message written on the weapon is understandable and such writing has history in the RAF, so the individual concerned will not be taken to task.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/raf-crew-write-love-manchester-bomb-destined-islamic-state/

 

[Haggis]

I somehow doubt that no one would have been "taken to task" had it been Canadian.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/raf-crew-write-love-manchester-bomb-destined-islamic-state/

We no longer bomb people.