Militants threaten to behead South Korean hostage
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Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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I think that some people need to realise there are people in the world who won't negotiate. They won't listen to reason and they won't seek a peaceful resolution. The only way, unfortunately, is to reach them with violence. There comes a time when you have to say "Okay these idiots are seriously going to get alto of people killed, their not going with the flow of things so were sending in some people to take their weapons away."
I think the idea of war and violence puts off a lot of people. It puts me off. Were all enlightened. Were all politically correct now and we don't judge people by the colour of their skin and we don't condom girls for liking girls, guys and guys. We don't want to hit our kids we want to give them time outs and treat them like little adults. A million other things. Thats just not the way it is. Using violence is the easiest way to get something and theres a lot of lazy people in the world. The only way were going to win i believe is being bigger, stronger and at times, meaner, then these guys. They only understand one thing. They speak one language, and it's violence. We need to speak louder and louder downing them out until their silent and we can decide to end that conversation.
I think the idea of war and violence puts off a lot of people. It puts me off. Were all enlightened. Were all politically correct now and we don't judge people by the colour of their skin and we don't condom girls for liking girls, guys and guys. We don't want to hit our kids we want to give them time outs and treat them like little adults. A million other things. Thats just not the way it is. Using violence is the easiest way to get something and theres a lot of lazy people in the world. The only way were going to win i believe is being bigger, stronger and at times, meaner, then these guys. They only understand one thing. They speak one language, and it's violence. We need to speak louder and louder downing them out until their silent and we can decide to end that conversation.
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About 12-14hrs ago, this poor bloke was brutally beheaded, and when his body was discovered earlier today, it was indeed booby trapped too.
Why am I not
suprised .
Thes so called followers of :evil:radical islam :evil: will get their just rewards in due process.
Wes
Why am I not
suprised .Thes so called followers of :evil:radical islam :evil: will get their just rewards in due process.
Wes
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Booby-trapped? Where did you read this Wes? I wouldn't mind seeing the article. Thanks.
N
NavyGrunt
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http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/22/iraq.hostage/index.html
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Military Brat said:
.................Easier said than done.
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Came in on the Midday Network 10 news within the past 60mins here in their Sydney based offices, so try Reuters or CNN, as they seem to gather info from these places at times.
Also try www.foxnews.com or www.news.com.au or www.dailytelegraph.com.au as they might have it in their breaking news sections??
Either way, it should surface in writing in tomorrows papers everywhere.
Cheers,
Wes
Also try www.foxnews.com or www.news.com.au or www.dailytelegraph.com.au as they might have it in their breaking news sections??
Either way, it should surface in writing in tomorrows papers everywhere.
Cheers,
Wes
M
Military Brat
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Infanteer said:
No, it might not be the root cause of the terrorism, but it is sure a leading factor in many of these young men turning into terrorists.
If I were a betting man, I would bet that a young, university graduate would be more likely to join Al Qaeda and the like if they were unemployed as opposed to if they were employed.
They realise that if they do their violent acts, their beheads and their bombs, that foreigners will cower and return to the USA, Canada, the UK, Australia, Japan or wherever they might happen to have originated from. Then there are more jobs available to young Arabs.
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It might not be the last thing I want to read just prior to hitting the sack but thanks for the links Wes and RopeTech.
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NavyGrunt
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I would say "leading factor" is a little strong. These men don't enjoy normal lives. Paychecks are the least of a terrorists concerns. Its not a 9-5. Unless you work in the Hexbollah headquarters......
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Infanteer, I agree this is a war of ideals not economics, but economics, as in all wars is a factor.
Poverty, and boredom are major factors in the recruitment of the poor sods who hump the AK and RPGs of the OPFOR in this conflict.
Look at most any guerrilla/terrorist/freedom fighter organization you want to. Many grab their recruits from the poorer sections of that society, FARC, PIRA, PLO, Hamas etc etc. The only exception of the top of my head would be RAF and the Red Brigades in Europe and their North American counterparts THE SLA in the US and Direct Action here in Canada, all of whom recruited mainly from the educated middle and upper middle classes IIRC. Even some of the Timothy McVeigh militia types could be said to fit this model if you stretch it a bit.
Add to that poverty, resentment and envy, and the realization that there is no way out (education, job etc) and you have some frustrated naïve youth easily manipulated by an older, wiser person in "authority.â ? (kind of remind you of basic training and your favourite old guard Section Comd/Pl WO) and voila one future martyr for the cause.
You see the same thing in housing projects here and in the States where the role model for the young kids (usually in single parent households) is often the local gangbanger/drug dealer. Ooops excuse me I meant, "free lance recreational pharmaceutical salesman.â ?
Probably the reason that we don't see something similar here (yet?) vis a vis recruitment for terrorist cells is our cradle to grave welfare state that cushions the abject poverty to an extent. Then again we have our own issues regarding terrorist recruitment in this country.
The answer to winning this war, and it is one we have to win, is probably a lot more complex than boots on the ground, although that remains a major factor.
Yeah we have to go in and take the ones in the field out. Don't get me wrong, I'm an Infanteer too, not some mushy NDP type. When we do so, no middle ground, take them down hard and fast. However we also have to prevent or at least limit them from raising a new generation of recruits at the same time. Otherwise this becomes a numbers game that I don't think we can afford to play.
Hearts and Minds has always been a major integral part of any successful counter terrorist campaign (Malaysia, Kenya,) or conversely the lack of it a contribution to its failure (Vietnam, Algeria)
Poverty, and boredom are major factors in the recruitment of the poor sods who hump the AK and RPGs of the OPFOR in this conflict.
Look at most any guerrilla/terrorist/freedom fighter organization you want to. Many grab their recruits from the poorer sections of that society, FARC, PIRA, PLO, Hamas etc etc. The only exception of the top of my head would be RAF and the Red Brigades in Europe and their North American counterparts THE SLA in the US and Direct Action here in Canada, all of whom recruited mainly from the educated middle and upper middle classes IIRC. Even some of the Timothy McVeigh militia types could be said to fit this model if you stretch it a bit.
Add to that poverty, resentment and envy, and the realization that there is no way out (education, job etc) and you have some frustrated naïve youth easily manipulated by an older, wiser person in "authority.â ? (kind of remind you of basic training and your favourite old guard Section Comd/Pl WO) and voila one future martyr for the cause.
You see the same thing in housing projects here and in the States where the role model for the young kids (usually in single parent households) is often the local gangbanger/drug dealer. Ooops excuse me I meant, "free lance recreational pharmaceutical salesman.â ?
Probably the reason that we don't see something similar here (yet?) vis a vis recruitment for terrorist cells is our cradle to grave welfare state that cushions the abject poverty to an extent. Then again we have our own issues regarding terrorist recruitment in this country.
The answer to winning this war, and it is one we have to win, is probably a lot more complex than boots on the ground, although that remains a major factor.
Yeah we have to go in and take the ones in the field out. Don't get me wrong, I'm an Infanteer too, not some mushy NDP type. When we do so, no middle ground, take them down hard and fast. However we also have to prevent or at least limit them from raising a new generation of recruits at the same time. Otherwise this becomes a numbers game that I don't think we can afford to play.
Hearts and Minds has always been a major integral part of any successful counter terrorist campaign (Malaysia, Kenya,) or conversely the lack of it a contribution to its failure (Vietnam, Algeria)
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I dont think unemployment has anything to do with it, as what was quoted previously, its about idealsim, of radical islam. They are motivated with their fight against the 'western animals' 1000 fold compared to as much as you and I are motivated to fight terrorsim. Its a dangerous world, and if they have their way, we'll all be history.
The youth of radical islam are fed by indoctrination of their beliefs thru harsh schooling, religious clerics and even their own parents. sadly this is evening happening right here in Australia, and the surrounding areas of the region. The movement is growing worldwide.
When young mothers fantisise about their 2yr old boys being suicide bombers for islam, dressing them up in toy bomb vests and toy AKs, something is seriously wrong. Being martyred with 70 virgins and rivers of wine to drink is considered an honour, in their beliefs and an increasing amount of men (and women) want to to this for their cause. You and I are simply willing to oblige them.
They want an islamic ran state world wide, and want to dominate the world, and if any of us are in the way, we are just sub-human trash which gets in their way. Almost like some out of a movie, isnt it, but the killings are real as much as their goals.
They have come to hate the west for everything it stands for. From its capitalism, acceptance of booze, to womens rights (like westrern dress, driving and and education fo example, plus many more abuses of basic womens rights), to rock music to our openess and broad acceptance of what they consider a filthy sin. Even picures of anything living is forbidden. Now thats twisted isnt it.
This is sadly how it is.
I think not having a job is the last thing on the minds of these people.
Regards,
Wes
The youth of radical islam are fed by indoctrination of their beliefs thru harsh schooling, religious clerics and even their own parents. sadly this is evening happening right here in Australia, and the surrounding areas of the region. The movement is growing worldwide.
When young mothers fantisise about their 2yr old boys being suicide bombers for islam, dressing them up in toy bomb vests and toy AKs, something is seriously wrong. Being martyred with 70 virgins and rivers of wine to drink is considered an honour, in their beliefs and an increasing amount of men (and women) want to to this for their cause. You and I are simply willing to oblige them.
They want an islamic ran state world wide, and want to dominate the world, and if any of us are in the way, we are just sub-human trash which gets in their way. Almost like some out of a movie, isnt it, but the killings are real as much as their goals.
They have come to hate the west for everything it stands for. From its capitalism, acceptance of booze, to womens rights (like westrern dress, driving and and education fo example, plus many more abuses of basic womens rights), to rock music to our openess and broad acceptance of what they consider a filthy sin. Even picures of anything living is forbidden. Now thats twisted isnt it.
This is sadly how it is.
I think not having a job is the last thing on the minds of these people.
Regards,
Wes
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Danjanou, Wes; reading both your posts and mine here, I think we are on the same page. Allow me to clarify my earlier statement.
The conflict in Iraq can come to a whole smattering of causes, and thus requires an approach that offers a smattering of solutions. Guys in flip-flops will pick up RPG's for many reasons; ex-Republican Guard, subject of religious opportunism, unemployed and baited by Al Qaeda, you name it.
My post was referring to the Al Qaeda terrorist networks. These are the products for the most parts of the militarization of the madrassas. The terrorist funded madrassas on the Afghan - Pakistan border, designed as ideological training facilities by Zia to combat the Soviets, did there job quite well. In fact, they did there job so well that what has been termed a "blowback" effect has occurred. Pakistan, once the corner of the secular Raj, Islamisized for the most part and seen the extreme elements of its society come to the fore, picking on Pakistan's dreary domestic record due to its high level of military expenditures. Recently, Musharaff has stated that he will take control of the imams in the madrassas in an attempt to stymie terrorist recruitment, how sincere his measures are I do not know, but I believe that policies like this are responsible for the recent attempts on his life.
Yes, economics is central. We must ensure that middle eastern regimes are cajoled into reducing their reliance on extremists sects to provide basic education services. It was something I noticed with a bit of trepidation during my tour to the Balkans; the only new buildings in the entire country where ones with minarets and Arabic writing on the walls. We can help further victory by moving the citizens of the Middle East away from their subservience towards petty dictators and power hungry mullahs, and this will take a concerted effort of development for the infrastructure of these regions.
However, my remark was more directed to the somewhat naive remarks that simply giving someone a job at an oil refinery as he leaves the madrassa door is going to solve the problems of terrorism. These people leave the camps fully committed, this proven by their ability to immolate themselves to further their cause. In the long term, the problem can be tempered by removing the raw materials for the extremist leaders who twist the words of the religion to suit their goals, but to take on the terrorists themselves requires, as you said, boots on the ground. It is essentially a test of will.
It is, as you say a complex affair. I simply want to argue against the notion put forward by other members that a simple solution like "give them jobs" is as silly as a simple solution of "turn the Middle East into a parking lot."
The conflict in Iraq can come to a whole smattering of causes, and thus requires an approach that offers a smattering of solutions. Guys in flip-flops will pick up RPG's for many reasons; ex-Republican Guard, subject of religious opportunism, unemployed and baited by Al Qaeda, you name it.
My post was referring to the Al Qaeda terrorist networks. These are the products for the most parts of the militarization of the madrassas. The terrorist funded madrassas on the Afghan - Pakistan border, designed as ideological training facilities by Zia to combat the Soviets, did there job quite well. In fact, they did there job so well that what has been termed a "blowback" effect has occurred. Pakistan, once the corner of the secular Raj, Islamisized for the most part and seen the extreme elements of its society come to the fore, picking on Pakistan's dreary domestic record due to its high level of military expenditures. Recently, Musharaff has stated that he will take control of the imams in the madrassas in an attempt to stymie terrorist recruitment, how sincere his measures are I do not know, but I believe that policies like this are responsible for the recent attempts on his life.
Yes, economics is central. We must ensure that middle eastern regimes are cajoled into reducing their reliance on extremists sects to provide basic education services. It was something I noticed with a bit of trepidation during my tour to the Balkans; the only new buildings in the entire country where ones with minarets and Arabic writing on the walls. We can help further victory by moving the citizens of the Middle East away from their subservience towards petty dictators and power hungry mullahs, and this will take a concerted effort of development for the infrastructure of these regions.
However, my remark was more directed to the somewhat naive remarks that simply giving someone a job at an oil refinery as he leaves the madrassa door is going to solve the problems of terrorism. These people leave the camps fully committed, this proven by their ability to immolate themselves to further their cause. In the long term, the problem can be tempered by removing the raw materials for the extremist leaders who twist the words of the religion to suit their goals, but to take on the terrorists themselves requires, as you said, boots on the ground. It is essentially a test of will.
It is, as you say a complex affair. I simply want to argue against the notion put forward by other members that a simple solution like "give them jobs" is as silly as a simple solution of "turn the Middle East into a parking lot."
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If I'm not mistaken, Mohammed Atta, one of the 911 pilots, was the son of a surgeon. I think some of the others were fairly well off, also. Everyone knows Bin Laden is a billionaire....
My impression is that (generally speaking) the educated and well to do are the terror architects, activists, and agitators - whilst the poor, unemployed etc. become the fodder for the cause..
My impression is that (generally speaking) the educated and well to do are the terror architects, activists, and agitators - whilst the poor, unemployed etc. become the fodder for the cause..
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Well said Muskrat.
when I speak of terrs, its radical islam in general with all their groups counting as as one. Whether is AQ, JI, and a heap of Palestinian ones too numerous to mention. But whether its England, Spain, Australia, USA and Canada too, their cause is known. The Philippines, Indonesia, The ME, Africa, Asia, or wherever the threat from them grows, and its a worldwide thing.many peopel bury theiur heads in the sand and refuse to regognise this fact, many blaming the US.
Just what are we up against? I think it s a sleeping monster which we are able to defeat, but which way should we go about doing it?
There are many avenues to take, but I just dont know which one will be the most overall effexctive. We will never win the hearts and minds of the bad guys no matter what.
Anyways, just a few thoughts.
Cheers,
Wes
when I speak of terrs, its radical islam in general with all their groups counting as as one. Whether is AQ, JI, and a heap of Palestinian ones too numerous to mention. But whether its England, Spain, Australia, USA and Canada too, their cause is known. The Philippines, Indonesia, The ME, Africa, Asia, or wherever the threat from them grows, and its a worldwide thing.many peopel bury theiur heads in the sand and refuse to regognise this fact, many blaming the US.
Just what are we up against? I think it s a sleeping monster which we are able to defeat, but which way should we go about doing it?
There are many avenues to take, but I just dont know which one will be the most overall effexctive. We will never win the hearts and minds of the bad guys no matter what.
Anyways, just a few thoughts.
Cheers,
Wes
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