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Military bases struggling with personnel shortages, internal review finds

daftandbarmy

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Are civilian jobs with equivalent required skills and responsibilities also within the same relative pay? How much does a non-destructive test technician makes on the civilian side? How much does a mid-level manager makes in the civilian world? How much does someone managing 3-400 people and north of $50M in O&M make in the civilian sector? What about high level managements of large companies?

Our salaries need to be at the very least on-par with what someone would make civilian-side with equivalent credentials.
I would say this is not a fair comparison because those in the military operating at, say, a middle management level, would have about as much chance of being successful in the civvy's job as a civvy transferring directly into an equivalently paid military job would be.

I've seen quite a few 'middle and upper management level' military folks try to make it in the civilian world.

Mostly, unless they are trades people (or pilots) slotting into directly comparable civilian jobs, they limp along on their pensions (thank God they have that income) while making various desperate, failed attempts at launching a civilian career. It's hard to watch (except for people I would describe as a$$holes, then it's hugely enjoyable of course).

Most of the time it isn't pretty, and a 10% success rate is probably about right.
 

SupersonicMax

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I would say this is not a fair comparison because those in the military operating at, say, a middle management level, would have about as much chance of being successful in the civvy's job as a civvy transferring directly into an equivalently paid military job would be.

I've seen quite a few 'middle and upper management level' military folks try to make it in the civilian world.

Mostly, unless they are trades people (or pilots) slotting into directly comparable civilian jobs, they limp along on their pensions (thank God they have that income) while making various desperate, failed attempts at launching a civilian career. It's hard to watch (except for people I would describe as a$$holes, then it's hugely enjoyable of course).

Most of the time it isn't pretty, and a 10% success rate is probably about right.
I am comparing salaries vs skills/responsibilities. Not a potential to jump ship.

Also, we don't hang out in the same circles I guess. The vast majority of people I know that jumped on the civilian side for non-flying jobs (ie: management/leadership roles) were highly successful and make a lot more than what they made in the CAF.

As Richard Branson said, "Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to."
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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EDIT: This response is to Max a couple of posts back. I'm a phone moron.



No they don't....your company trained you on thier dime to know what you know and if you screw up your getting moved and not fired.

If you think that then jump to that "equivalent " civilian job.....dont think you'll find it.
 

SupersonicMax

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EDIT: This response is to Max a couple of posts back. I'm a phone moron.



No they don't....your company trained you on thier dime to know what you know and if you screw up your getting moved and not fired.

If you think that then jump to that "equivalent " civilian job.....dont think you'll find it.
Edit: Nevermind, I figured it out.

In the last year, I had four headhunters contact me for jobs of the same relative skills/responsibilities (two were hard no-fly, one was hybrid, one was a pilot job). I don't need to find them, they seem to find me. I am just not interested at the moment, given I am a few years away from a pension. This is not unique to me. Friends have similar experiences. Some have taken the jobs.

Our compensation package should be commensurate to the market, just like CFHA is adamant to make sure PMQ prices are on par with the local market.
 
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Humphrey Bogart

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We aren't getting any pay cuts. The narrative that CAF members are overpaid is just a distraction from the real issues.

The CAF's problems can all be attributed to very poor organization efficiency when it comes to resource allocation.

Both the Regular Force and Reserve Force are structurally unsound. If the Reg Force is overweight though, the Reserves are morbidly obese.
 

Mediman14

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The Military is great opportunity for an career and stable income. But probably some work needs to be done with the pensions. However some places don't even offer a pension. As a teenager, I always wanted to be in the Military, I wanted that pride, I wanted to wear that uniform. The first opportunity I got to join, I did.
IMO, the shortage is not from the supply system or from the uniform or even how you are paid. The shortage is from the culture within itself. Say what you like, the fact is that the military is not what it used to be. In my 20 years serving, it started off with lots of comradery no matter what the task was, we looked after one another regardless of who you are. Even sweeping the floors was fun!!! Now, many see it as punishment. As a Pte/ Cpl I loved going to work. We worked hard and played hard. I met some of the best people on this planet, I am grateful for the experience and the opportunity to serve.
As the generations carry on, many but not all troops that I seen, see things as "what you can do for me". It became very frustrating as a Snr NCO, and then the politics involved had became mind numbing at it's best. I am not speaking on behalf of everyone but in my general experience, especially within the Medical Branch in my last 10 years of service. I have seen so much. There was so much back stabbing, it had became a game of who liked you and who didn't. Some people in Snr positions only came with their own agenda and how it benefited them.
Like I said before, IMO, the military is not what it used to be.
 

Furniture

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We aren't getting any pay cuts. The narrative that CAF members are overpaid is just a distraction from the real issues.

The CAF's problems can all be attributed to very poor organization efficiency when it comes to resource allocation.

Both the Regular Force and Reserve Force are structurally unsound. If the Reg Force is overweight though, the Reserves are morbidly obese.
I'm not sure all problems are related to that point, but a lot definitely are.

My trade set up it's employment and training structure to support the war in Afghanistan. When combat operations stopped, we were left with an employment structure that fails to meet our current needs, and significantly contributes to our retention issues.
 

daftandbarmy

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The Military is great opportunity for an career and stable income. But probably some work needs to be done with the pensions. However some places don't even offer a pension. As a teenager, I always wanted to be in the Military, I wanted that pride, I wanted to wear that uniform. The first opportunity I got to join, I did.
IMO, the shortage is not from the supply system or from the uniform or even how you are paid. The shortage is from the culture within itself. Say what you like, the fact is that the military is not what it used to be. In my 20 years serving, it started off with lots of comradery no matter what the task was, we looked after one another regardless of who you are. Even sweeping the floors was fun!!! Now, many see it as punishment. As a Pte/ Cpl I loved going to work. We worked hard and played hard. I met some of the best people on this planet, I am grateful for the experience and the opportunity to serve.
As the generations carry on, many but not all troops that I seen, see things as "what you can do for me". It became very frustrating as a Snr NCO, and then the politics involved had became mind numbing at it's best. I am not speaking on behalf of everyone but in my general experience, especially within the Medical Branch in my last 10 years of service. I have seen so much. There was so much back stabbing, it had became a game of who liked you and who didn't. Some people in Snr positions only came with their own agenda and how it benefited them.
Like I said before, IMO, the military is not what it used to be.
What you're probably describing is the way that leadership has changed over time.

No one sweeps floors for 'fun' unless they have great leaders who fully committed and are in there with them, up to their elbows.
 

Mediman14

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What you're probably describing is the way that leadership has changed over time.

No one sweeps floors for 'fun' unless they have great leaders who fully committed and are in there with them, up to their elbows.
We did not sweep the floors for fun, what I am saying is that when we did sweep the floors on a friday afternoon or any day, we made it into a fun time! We laughed and had fun doing it. Our Supervisors at the time never helped us, but it did not matter. I found that those supervisors never placed themselves in a position to take away from others, but yet they where great to deal with. They looked after us.
Fast forward to now, most (not all) are out for themselves. Some even look for ways to get you in trouble.
 

mariomike

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We did not sweep the floors for fun, what I am saying is that when we did sweep the floors on a friday afternoon or any day, we made it into a fun time! We laughed and had fun doing it.
Reminds me of something I heard when I could not have been more than nine, maybe ten, years old. But, I remembered it, and have tried to follow since, "In every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun and - SNAP - the job's a game."

Helped in the Army ( PRes ) too, because those M135s were not going to wash themselves. :)
 

stoker dave

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Mostly, unless they are trades people (or pilots) slotting into directly comparable civilian jobs, they limp along on their pensions (thank God they have that income) while making various desperate, failed attempts at launching a civilian career. It's hard to watch (except for people I would describe as a$$holes, then it's hugely enjoyable of course).

Most of the time it isn't pretty, and a 10% success rate is probably about right.
In my experience, that is exactly true.

Suppose someone from DND says they are responsible for a a $50M project. They then think they can leave the government and work for a company executing $50M projects. That is completely false.

On the government side, their responsibility is usually glorified contract management providing oversight to a contractor executing a statement of work.

The contractor is responsible for a whole lot more: resource allocation, hiring and staffing, schedule, cash flow, delivery of the necessary goods and services, quality assurance, returning a profit, internal and client audits, compliance with all the laws and regulations, etc. The contractor also has to maintain good client relations and keep an eye out to win the next project. It is much, much, much harder to execute a project than watch someone else do all the work.
 

TCM621

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The Military is great opportunity for an career and stable income. But probably some work needs to be done with the pensions. However some places don't even offer a pension. As a teenager, I always wanted to be in the Military, I wanted that pride, I wanted to wear that uniform. The first opportunity I got to join, I did.
IMO, the shortage is not from the supply system or from the uniform or even how you are paid. The shortage is from the culture within itself. Say what you like, the fact is that the military is not what it used to be. In my 20 years serving, it started off with lots of comradery no matter what the task was, we looked after one another regardless of who you are. Even sweeping the floors was fun!!! Now, many see it as punishment. As a Pte/ Cpl I loved going to work. We worked hard and played hard. I met some of the best people on this planet, I am grateful for the experience and the opportunity to serve.
As the generations carry on, many but not all troops that I seen, see things as "what you can do for me". It became very frustrating as a Snr NCO, and then the politics involved had became mind numbing at it's best. I am not speaking on behalf of everyone but in my general experience, especially within the Medical Branch in my last 10 years of service. I have seen so much. There was so much back stabbing, it had became a game of who liked you and who didn't. Some people in Snr positions only came with their own agenda and how it benefited them.
Like I said before, IMO, the military is not what it used to be.
It's the play hard part that is deader than a door nail. I remember being looked into a compound for a Xmas dinner. The booze flowed freely, everyone had fun, we were all drunken animals but the CoC kept the nonsense to a minimum. Fights were quickly broken up and the offenders sent to bed under escort of one of the Jacks. We had a few women in the regiment at the time who were, shall we say, popular with the drunk twenty something men but they were well protected. Any behavior that went beyond being a drunken idiot was dealt with harshly, with a beating if necessary, but I can't remember anyone doing anything that warranted something beyond removing the moron and making him do extras hungover. I bet most of those never went higher than the pl comd but it got the job done.

Now we kept the worst aspects of military life and got rid of the good aspects. We used to get people interest in the military by inviting them to the mess for 2 dollar beers (which was about half the price than at a bar at the time), them we would spend 2 hours talking his ear off about all the cool stuff we did. A lot of those guys ended up at the recruiting center. How the hell do you get people to the mess at full downtown prices with a police force that is just itching to hassle people coming out of the mess?

I understand we have to change with the times and the Airborne thing ruined it for the rest of us but we have become so corporate that we can't function as a military anymore. We are basically a poorly run corporation that is in the mission business because we are not capable of being in the war business.
 

daftandbarmy

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In my experience, that is exactly true.

Suppose someone from DND says they are responsible for a a $50M project. They then think they can leave the government and work for a company executing $50M projects. That is completely false.

On the government side, their responsibility is usually glorified contract management providing oversight to a contractor executing a statement of work.

The contractor is responsible for a whole lot more: resource allocation, hiring and staffing, schedule, cash flow, delivery of the necessary goods and services, quality assurance, returning a profit, internal and client audits, compliance with all the laws and regulations, etc. The contractor also has to maintain good client relations and keep an eye out to win the next project. It is much, much, much harder to execute a project than watch someone else do all the work.
... and the civilian workday never starts at 0930 after (notional) PT or stops for long, leisurely 'coffee breaks' where one can pontificate at length, on company time, about nothing important to the business.
 

dimsum

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We used to get people interest in the military by inviting them to the mess for 2 dollar beers (which was about half the price than at a bar at the time), them we would spend 2 hours talking his ear off about all the cool stuff we did. A lot of those guys ended up at the recruiting center.
I mean, that's how I got in... 😉
 

Mediman14

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It's the play hard part that is deader than a door nail. I remember being looked into a compound for a Xmas dinner. The booze flowed freely, everyone had fun, we were all drunken animals but the CoC kept the nonsense to a minimum. Fights were quickly broken up and the offenders sent to bed under escort of one of the Jacks. We had a few women in the regiment at the time who were, shall we say, popular with the drunk twenty something men but they were well protected. Any behavior that went beyond being a drunken idiot was dealt with harshly, with a beating if necessary, but I can't remember anyone doing anything that warranted something beyond removing the moron and making him do extras hungover. I bet most of those never went higher than the pl comd but it got the job done.

Now we kept the worst aspects of military life and got rid of the good aspects. We used to get people interest in the military by inviting them to the mess for 2 dollar beers (which was about half the price than at a bar at the time), them we would spend 2 hours talking his ear off about all the cool stuff we did. A lot of those guys ended up at the recruiting center. How the hell do you get people to the mess at full downtown prices with a police force that is just itching to hassle people coming out of the mess?

I understand we have to change with the times and the Airborne thing ruined it for the rest of us but we have become so corporate that we can't function as a military anymore. We are basically a poorly run corporation that is in the mission business because we are not capable of being in the war business.
We are really not in the war business at all, not even sure what business we are in! However the CAF is heading (if not already) in a really big mess. IMO, it starts with Leadership and the lack accountability that follows . When was the last time someone heard Snr Leadership admit to a mistake? I personally don’t recall hearing any! Even if there was any mistakes, it gets swept away.
The CAF needs a major overhaul, it’s documentation and orders ( CANFORGEN and any orders) needs to be revamped. That is tall task. The CAF needs a open minded approach to change things. Those who are not open minded, should be out of the decision making process all together.
 
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