Military Making Pitch to Aboriginal Youth ($1,200 bonus for aboriginals)

[Otis]

OK, I apologize for my attempt at Political Correctness ... I guess my example was too obtuse for the general populace.

To strengthen my "weak" argument ... replace "Little Green Martian" with a minority group of your preference ... Women, Black, Native, Asian ... all of which ARE Canadian and quite a few of which I am SURE have :

"shopped at a Canadian Tire, got up a 04:00 to drive their kids to hockey practice, had a Tim's large D/D and a maple glazed while you wait, can't hum the old Hockey  Night in Canada theme"

I think my argument stands.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Now imagine the same scenario, only deployed with the little green martians are people of your race or sex or background or religion, equally trained and qualified as the martians. If they were to approach you to address your concerns, the compliance and satisfaction you felt would be heightened and the situation diffused much more easily and with less chance of 'misunderstanding' ... is this not a better, more effective use of resources?

Out west with all the Olympic BS going on there seems to be a schism with native communities. One one hand you have natives who are working in the Olympics or don't have a problem with the Olympics. The others are protesting the olympics with slogans such as no olympics on stolen land etc..  The latter seem more than happy to call the former race traitors, white mans dogs and a bunch of other names.  They don't seem too open minded having their own people on the other side- point of fact it seems to piss them off even more.

 

[armyvern]

Out west with all the Olympic BS going on these seems to be a schism with native communities. One one hand you have natives who are working in the Olympics or don't have a problem with the Olympics. The others are protesting the olympics with slogans such as no olympics on stolen land etc..  The latter seem more than happy to call the former race traitors, white mans dogs and a bunch of other names.  They don't seem too open minded having their own people on the other side- point of fact it seems to piss them off even more.

And, exactly as I pointed out earlier ---

The CF is not interested in attracting either the hard-left or hard-right Canadians on any issue regardless of what side of the fence they sit on for matters such as these.

We are interested in attracting the "average Canadian" regardless of what side of the issue they sit on regarding matters such as these.

News flash: MOST aboriginals are "average Canadians". WE need MORE of them to convince those that are the hard-left and hard-right (like your pers noted above) that WE are nothing to fear and that their mistrust is misplaced, so that THEY see it for themselves.

Other than that, citing examples of hard-left or hard-right Canadians has absolutely diddly-squat to do with this thread. They usually tend to be the extreme minority of a minority and are certainly not representative of the "average".

WE should know better than to do that and to try to make out those hard left or hard right people as being "representative" of an "average group" ... the media does it to us "average CF members" each and every time some CF member really fucks up and we absolutely HATE IT when the media tars us all with that big broad brush. Shouldn't we be extending the exact same courtesy we expect in that regard to all those "average Canadian" aboriginals out there? Isn't doing that fair?

 

[Otis]

For the record ... I'm out of this coversation before I say something I'm going to regret ... calling me a racist is WAY off-line.

 

[armyvern]

For the record ... I'm out of this coversation before I say something I'm going to regret ... calling me a racist is WAY off-line.

It was 100% uncalled for and your example was perfectly fine, some are just beginning to pick fly shit out of the pepper. It was quite simple to understand the gist of your example, some choose to see it differently than what it is. As for me, I'm done with this thread too ... some people are having trouble seeing their noses this evening to spite their faces. That's a pretty sad commentary.

 

[armyvern]

Really, his post of which the commentary occured was colour blind. Funny that.

 

[Kat Stevens]

NEVER MIND, ALL FIXED, CARRY ON.  I have removed all of my posts on this thread, as I'm quite obviously too thick and too much of a fascist to contribute anything relevant.  Apologies to all those on a more evolved plane of existence.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Areas where having access to cable television can not be taken for granted, nor can internet access. Nor, for that matter, are these aboriginal people availed of same availibility of many other things that "we" (and by using "we" - I'm now including us "white folk" AND Canadian immigrants) take for granted. Such as accessibility to daily newpapers on a regular basis. Such as access to programming on television where they can see what their nation's military is doing and what we "really are like". Heck, some of them have a hard enough time accessing clean drinking water.

I also suspect that CFRCs, or even recruiters at their schools during job fairs, aren't exactly "known" in these communities so that they are aware of what we can offer. We certainly just can't say "go to your nearest CFRC & find out what we're about" or "google CF Recruiting". I don't know too many of "us" who would be able to afford to just fork out the dough to travel up to 1500km to hit the nearest recruiting centre - let alone a young "average Canadian" living in an isolated community who probably "mistrusts" us in the first place.

If you want to make us avaiable to them, then go recruit at their towns. I mean, the news of this "Bold Eagle" program is spread somehow, no? And present it the same way and give them the same opportunities you give to everyone else.

Let's not kid ourselves, these opportunities (that we take for granted because they are SOOOOOO accesible and known to the rest of "us" have to be presented to those who would otherwise NOT be availed or even aware of the opportunity.

Definitly. So go recruit up there. Give presentations. But dont, I'd say, tell them "well, we'll give you an opportunity to take it for a trial run, an opportunity we dont give other people."

IF these aboriginals who attend Bold eagle are successful, THEN they have opportunity to apply to enrol into the Canadian Forces if they so choose. That is ALL that they are guaranteed - the opportunity to apply.

I dont deny that it sounds like a good recruitment tool... But ethically I can only support it until the part where they say "you have to be an aboriginal"

And what of all those aboriginals in the major metropolitan centers that get to do this "trial run"?

Isn't that what it's all supposed to be about?

To my way of thinking: There ain't nothing wrong with that. Both sides win. Canada wins. In this case, I can not say the ends justify the means. Not from my stand point.

There is a bigger picture out there people, and there's a whole lot of "best" Canadians who don't have the access and info or opportunity that we take fro granted.

Sounds to me like the correct thing to do is to give them access to this info and to this opportunity rather than giving them a special opportunity based on the colour of their skin. Go up there and recruit. Go up there and present the army to them. Go facilitate their ability to enroll... but *dont* give them a "trial run" of the army unless you're going to offer it to everyone.

 

[Brasidas]

...The DND has had awesome foresight and have established solid relationships with the elders of the community, to ensure their "children" (which is ANY youth, say up to roughly age 25) in a community leave under their own free will and volition...

I'm curious about this. What are these "solid relationships with the elders" that you're talking about? I'd think of programs like Bold Eagle being a sort of a scatter gun project funded in lieu of opening up CFRC's in metropoli like Fort Vermilion or Churchill.

Please give your employer some credit for this awesome (and thoughtful) relationship they have built. This program is helping to ease the mistrust which has bred for many years.

I'm not panning it, but some parts of it rub me the wrong way. Bold Eagle's been around at least since I was on course in Wainwright in 99. I recall reservist QL2 being a six week course at the time and that they stretched it out with some prep that included some  cultural stuff. As I understand it, and Army Chick has confirmed, it was (is) Status-only.

Fine, it's discriminatory against non-status aboriginals. And there are cases like the individual who was freaked out by the trees. Not every native-cultured individual is a Status Indian. And this new program is intended to offer something for those that aren't Status. There's still that 1/16 rich kid from downtown Toronto.

The screening tool bit seems iffy to me. Ok, no-trees girl could have been at St Jean when she discovered her condition, but... Folks VR anyway. I'd rather see the money put into retention programs, identifying and addressing why experienced people are leaving than spending money on targetting demographics for recruitment.

You say that you got something out of it, great. You're admitting its imperfect, and I have a hard time disagreeing with you being less deserving of getting in on a Bold Eagle type opportunity. I'm not trying to trash talk your program, but I've got issues with it.

What I've got ifurther issues with is this "diversity for diversity's sake" stuff.

These programs are not, thank god, a slippery slope towards units being obliged to have a wheelchair-ridden, french-speaking, female african canadian quota. That's a dead letter, and Army Vern's absolutely right in that these programs aren't eliminating merit for selection for positions.

For the rather blatant Oka scenario that the now-departed Otis brought up, yes, I can imagine that aboriginals may have trust issues in a domestic ops situation. If a situation gets down to troops facing off with Natives, I don't see three more aboriginal corporals in an infantry company making a spit of difference. Those troops wouldn't be there for relaxed, intimate negotiations.

Outside of that particular scenario, I don't see any minority communities that are going to be in a comparable situation. Somali immigrants? Might affect recruiting of second generation in their families. But how much of an impact are a couple of dozen pers going to make after being diffused through the entire CF? They're in the big cities, and how much social exposure is there of immigrant populations to troops?

If I saw or heard unacceptable behaviour regarding minorities, I'd address it with the people involved. If a coworker or subordinate, particularly a private untrained, was having a rough time and it involved some sort of cultural issue, I'd be willing to listen and be supportive. If there were some sort of institutional issue that was causing members of a group to relase, I'd expect the CF to take a look at it. That's as far as I believe "diversity" needs to go.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

"Mistrust" stems from residential schools. It's not an "excuse", it's the truth. I won't sit here and defend it but I will offer to anyone who wants this, a trip to a reserve and other types of native communities, to take you on a tour to talk to elders, to the middle generation and the youth. I offer you first-hand experience to truly see, how this affects people. Elders are afraid of the government (ANY branch... health care, Indian Affairs, DND, etc.) taking their children again, as they did before with schools. The DND has had awesome foresight and have established solid relationships with the elders of the community, to ensure their "children" (which is ANY youth, say up to roughly age 25) in a community leave under their own free will and volition. For example, when we are done our course, we go home for 2 weeks. This shows the elders we have come back... this allows us to decide if we want to REALLY join... and only THEN do the recruiting staff finish processing the application. When the 'children' leave, the elders see it really was their choice and that no one was coerced to do this.

Please give your employer some credit for this awesome (and thoughtful) relationship they have built. This program is helping to ease the mistrust which has bred for many years.

Sounds like it works, but I cant support it ethically. What about all those parents in the large metropolitan areas that dont trust the government? Hell, my parents STILL think I was "brainwashed" into joining. 

In my opinion, the ends do not justify the means in this case.

Bold Eagle/Black Bear/Raven is a 7-week program which allows the youth (it's limited to ages 17-25ish) and they are paid approximately $3500 upon completion for their training. Their training during this time, is actually the same training someone in the reserves gets and upon completion, they have the option to join the Reserves OR they could also go Reg Force. There is no commitment, it's their choice to make at the end.

Could you tell me this, since I'm not sure. If one were to complete this training, does he have to redo training if he decides to stay? What if he wishes to go regs?

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

For the rather blatant Oka scenario that the now-departed Otis brought up, yes, I can imagine that aboriginals may have trust issues in a domestic ops situation. If a situation gets down to troops facing off with Natives, I don't see three more aboriginal corporals in an infantry company making a spit of difference. Those troops wouldn't be there for relaxed, intimate negotiations.

Thats made me think... In that kind of a situation I think that the Natives would have seen all of us in one colour---green, while certain people in the green seem to see us as "We're all green, but we're also other colours too."

 

[vonGarvin]

Thats made me think... In that kind of a situation I think that the Natives would have seen all of us in one colour---green, while certain people in the green seem to see us as "We're all green, but we're also other colours too."

Having been at Oka, and having had several natives in my company, a few in my platoon and one in my section, I can jump in here.
The Mohawks on the line called them "MacIntosh" (red on the outside, white on the inside).  Other names were used as well.  Being soldiers, during the work up training, we poked fun at my friend in my section.  "Chief" (as we called him) came into our room one day and started moving furniture.  We asked him WTF he was doing.  He said in a very heavy and stereotypical native accent that he was protecting his land, etc.  So we jumped him as soldiers do, wrestling around.  It was all good fun.
In the end, we ourselves knew exactly what buttons to push to get our fellow soldiers going.  That's just what we did.  In the end, however, we were all friends, and it mattered not what race, etc, they were. 

 

[LineJumper]

Could you tell me this, since I'm not sure. If one were to complete this training, does he have to redo training if he decides to stay? What if he wishes to go regs?

It is the same qualification as a reserve BMQ. Same rules apply in the event of a reservist CT to reg. The primary drawback I've seen with the program, is since the individual does not "sign up" with his/her local unit, they do not have a UIC. Now, the fun part is when they've completed training, they have the opportunity to join a reserve unit in (if) their locale. The gaining unit now needs documentation re: BMQ, which is held by the hosting course facilities. I'm no clerk, so I don't know how these files are handled. The qualified individual is pretty much on the cooler until said paperwork reaches their unit of choice (pending eligibility for trade). Fortunately (or not) due to the fiscal situation, they may not be out of a future training calendar, however, nominations will likely not be entertained due to no/late confirmation of training.

I've not participated in this program, only instructed it. I've also participated in recruiting events on reserves and remote locations. The one thing I always found shocking was how little was known of the CF and what it had to offer. I suppose I was lucky that I had army cadets to grow up with which facilitated my recruitment. It isn't just the military targeting the aboriginal workforce. I was blown away by all the industries involved in looking for future talent from these areas, as I'm sure they do anywhere else but I digress.

Oh yes, the now trained individual has 1 year from course completion to join without having to re do a BMQ.

 

[armychick2009]

I'm not panning it, but some parts of it rub me the wrong way. Bold Eagle's been around at least since I was on course in Wainwright in 99. I recall reservist QL2 being a six week course at the time and that they stretched it out with some prep that included some  cultural stuff. As I understand it, and Army Chick has confirmed, it was (is) Status-only.

No, none of these programs offered by the Canadian Military are "status-only".  It's anyone who self-identifies as aboriginal. Non-status can participate in these programs.

The status-only program is what I said would happen, if the Department of Indian Affairs administered a program like this.

Could you tell me this, since I'm not sure. If one were to complete this training, does he have to redo training if he decides to stay? What if he wishes to go regs?

Nero, this is how the flow of these programs can work.

PRETC (which is the course I took) is a three-week introduction. At the end of this course, I can do the following:

A) Go home and take my two weeks and sleep in and never think about military life again.
B) Go home and take my two weeks and think about going to RMC.
C) Go home and take my two weeks and think about going reserves. Options are Bold Eagle, Raven, Black Bear and/or ANY reserve training going on.
D) Go home and take my two weeks and think about going reg force. Option is St. Jean.


You do NOT need to take the PRETC to get into the Bold Eagle/Raven/BlackBear. I call PRETC a "sampler", a taste of what the army has to offer.

Bold Eagle/Raven/Black Bear is as LineJumper said, same qualification as a reserve BMQ. Same training with some cultural stuff added. SAME training, just things added. So... they aren't losing out on something in exchange for the culture stuff, it's in addition to...

At the end of the Bold Eagle/Raven/Black Bear programs, they have these options.

A) Go home and sleep in and never think about military life again.
B) Go home and work in the local reserve unit and go for their trade training the way other reservists would.
C) Go reg force, go to St. Jean and take the same training ANY reservist would take if they had decided to go from reserve to reg.

There's no line-skipping here.

 

[The Bread Guy]

200% Increase In Bedouin Enlistment
IDF feature story, 19 Jan 10

The IDF and Bedouin leaders are constantly working towards better integration of Bedouins into Israeli society

There has been a 200% increase in the number of Bedouins enlisting in the IDF within the last two years – so said the Chief of the General Staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, on Monday (Jan. 18) at his meeting with the chairman of the Mayors of Bedouin Councils in the North, Mr. Hassan El Haib.

Nine Bedouin soldiers who were part of the recent Golani Brigade draft, are the latest proof of the ongoing and growing involvement of the Bedouin community in the IDF. The soldiers are deployed in all IDF units, including the various Infantry Corps units and especially tracker and reconnaissance units, and pay a significant and important contribution. A large percentage of Bedouin soldiers serve in the Desert Reconnaissance Battalion which is stationed in the Israel-Egypt-Gaza area. The IDF also recently began organizing employment fairs for discharged Bedouin soldiers in order to better integrate them into Israeli society after their military service.

The significant increase of Bedouin enlistment in the IDF was brought about by the joint effort of Bedouin leaders, the Human Resources Directorate and the General Staff. Other factors leading to the larger drafts are economic reasons and the general atmosphere among most of the Bedouin population, who believes that the way to integrate into Israeli society is through military service.

Mr. El Haib thanked the Chief of the General Staff for the efforts made by the IDF for the promotion and welfare of Bedouin soldiers, and asked the IDF for help in facing various government institutions in the search of employment and accommodation for discharged Bedouin soldiers.

 

[armychick2009]

Thanks for posting that link!

I had a chance to meet with some Bedouins at the United Nations permanent forum on Indigenous issues in NYC this past May. One of my favourite photos I took was of the three bedouins all reading magazines in their "regalia" with three timex's showing, on the floors of the United Nations. Caught between two worlds, not an easy life!

I'm hoping I get to attend this year (though, having to get passport this year kinda bugs me... too bad they couldn't air-drop me onto the international territory (where the UN sits) to avoid having to get passport to walk on my own lands! *laughs*  (Another "perk" of being non-status is you do not get the same rights of travel as full-status or... even the rights to serve in the american army or work on US soil, with regards to Jays Treaty).

That's another topic for another thread though... and probably on another message board altogether!!

 

[armyvern]

Thanks for posting that link!

I had a chance to meet with some Bedouins at the United Nations permanent forum on Indigenous issues in NYC this past May. One of my favourite photos I took was of the three bedouins all reading magazines in their "regalia" with three timex's showing, on the floors of the United Nations. Caught between two worlds, not an easy life!

I'm hoping I get to attend this year (though, having to get passport this year kinda bugs me... too bad they couldn't air-drop me onto the international territory (where the UN sits) to avoid having to get passport to walk on my own lands! *laughs*  (Another "perk" of being non-status is you do not get the same rights of travel as full-status or... even the rights to serve in the american army or work on US soil, with regards to Jays Treaty).

That's another topic for another thread though... and probably on another message board altogether!!

You're not lying about the caught between two worlds.

Israel is a country with a landmass comparable to that of Canada's province of New Brunswick. Even the "rural" areas are littered with satellite dishes and everyone (even the wee children) have cell-phones permanently attached to their hips/ears, not to mention IDF posts.

To "see" and be exposed to their military (the IDF) is a daily ritual ... the IDF are all over the place. What they do and what they are about is certainly not a secret even to the beaudoin population although their lifestyles may be vastely different.

I'm not sure that their program is comparable to ours ... apples/oranges. Huge/small. Well-known/rarely seen/possibly never-seen. They certainly waaaaayyyy have the upper hand in the "see and be seen department" by the populace you wish to attract, the "communications" department, and the "accesabiity" departments --- exactly those "departments" where the nature of Canada's vaste geography has dealt us the huge blow.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I'm not sure that their program is comparable to ours ... apples/oranges. Huge/small. Well-known/rarely seen/possibly never-seen. They certainly waaaaayyyy have the upper hand in the "see and be seen department" by the populace you wish to attract, the "communications" department, and the "accesabiity" departments --- exactly those "departments" where the nature of Canada's vaste geography has dealt us the huge blow.

To be fair, I realize it's never going to be an exact match (hence the "contrast" option), but I just wanted to stoke the discussion a bit re:  how other countries seem to be reaching out to minorities as a way to get them to consider the national military enough of THEIR military to get more of them to join.  In addition to the "people per square kilometre" and "public visibility" factors Vern highlights, I don't see any indication of any financial incentive for the Bedouins.  That's probably because the other two biggies negate the need for $?

Another difference is this bit:

The IDF and Bedouin leaders are constantly working towards better integration of Bedouins into Israeli society.

Methinks our program is more a way to say "look, you should consider a military career" to groups who may not traditionally see the CF as a place to work and serve.

 

[armychick2009]

I particularly liked the wording of "integrating" as opposed to "assimilating"...

 

[Brasidas]

I particularly liked the wording of "integrating" as opposed to "assimilating"...

With rhetoric like Avigdor Lieberman's about expelling the resident Arab population from the country altogether, I find the IDF welcoming Bedouin recruits at all reassuring.