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Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more

  • Thread starter Thread starter Meditations in Green
  • Start date Start date
KevinB said:
Another point on the C-16 AGL, (I'm still pretty jet lagged from the 12hr time shift I just did so bear with me), its a sealed HV Grenade -- you can't due half charge, its not a 105 casing that you can removed charge bags from, nor can you peal increments like a mortar.
  Would you recommend folks half charge a .50 or other small arms ammo - of course not -- well this is the same type of idea.

Yeah, that was my cockamamie idea.  It is a far out idea, but how else do you lob a round less than 700m from defilade.  I understand the current ammunition is fixed and cannot be altered; what I was suggesting was an entirely different projectile.  Perhaps, call it medium velocity.  As crazy as the idea may sound, the ability to site the weapon in defilade or in a fortified postion without LOS, and engage targets less than 700m may prove valuable.  Very similar to siting MGs, and firing into killzones, without actually seeing them.
 
GnyHwy said:
Yeah, that was my cockamamie idea.  It is a far out idea, but how else do you lob a round less than 700m from defilade.  I understand the current ammunition is fixed and cannot be altered; what I was suggesting was an entirely different projectile.  Perhaps, call it medium velocity.  As crazy as the idea may sound, the ability to site the weapon in defilade or in a fortified postion without LOS, and engage targets less than 700m may prove valuable.  Very similar to siting MGs, and firing into killzones, without actually seeing them.

It doesn't sound crazy at all. Given how wonderfully suited the weapon is for killing infantry, being able to engage from defilade at distances wherein infantry small arms can be effectively employed against you would seem to be a damned good asset. The analogy that jumps to mind here is 'counterbattery' against enemy GPMG equivalents in the light role, or anti armour weapons; guiding fire onto enemy support weapons. Maybe I'm thinking too conventionally here- but we need to retain the ability to fight a stand up fight, n'est-ce pas? If AGLS is to be the only organic indirect-ish fire asset within the battalion, it would be nice to be able to drop rounds from and into defilade during the defensive battle at les than a kilometer.
 
I'd just use a Mortar  ;D

Larger warhead - and less expensive.

 
KevinB said:
How many PY's do you need to carry the bungee?

Offhand, it looks like 4.

French_grenade_catapult.jpg
 
Technoviking said:
(My recommendation to attach a dove-tail mounting bracket to the side of the tripod, so that a C2A1 sightunit could be attached was laughed at...)

While I understand that the trill of young laughter always fills the halls of J7 because it's such a jolly place, were you ever given a *reason* why this is not considered a practical COA? It seems that the single easiest way to make skills transferable from the established (albeit dwindling) skillsets would be commonality in sighting equipment. If you 'get' C6 SF shooting indirect off a firing table, really the leap in understanding to C16 would require nothing more than new firing table and trajectory graphs, and an understanding of the capabilities the new ammo brings... Am I missing anything blindingly obvious on this that would make it a stupid idea or were you left as baffled as I now am?
 
Brihard said:
While I understand that the trill of young laughter always fills the halls of J7 because it's such a jolly place, were you ever given a *reason* why this is not considered a practical COA? It seems that the single easiest way to make skills transferable from the established (albeit dwindling) skillsets would be commonality in sighting equipment. If you 'get' C6 SF shooting indirect off a firing table, really the leap in understanding to C16 would require nothing more than new firing table and trajectory graphs, and an understanding of the capabilities the new ammo brings... Am I missing anything blindingly obvious on this that would make it a stupid idea or were you left as baffled as I now am?

Because then some one would look very silly when it was realized that troops in the filed were leaving the $ 10,000 thermal computer wonder sight back in the CQ and taking the proven 50 yr old sight we already had in stores.

To play the devil's advocate for firing into defilade would the air burst function not be a practical alternative?
 
R031button said:
Because then some one would look very silly when it was realized that troops in the filed were leaving the $ 10,000 thermal computer wonder sight back in the CQ and taking the proven 50 yr old sight we already had in stores.

To play the devil's advocate for firing into defilade would the air burst function not be a practical alternative?

Intuitively I would expect it probably would be, but it's still an angles game. If firing from defilade, the round will be relatively flat for the first while, so airburst would probably occur quite high at mid ranges. Yeah, this can be accommodated by how the guns are dug in, but that's sort of the classic protection / arcs dilemma...
 
Angles - trajectory, velocity -- yada yada yada.

You need a mortar...

I love technology as much if not more than the next man, but an AGL is not going to replace ALL the capabilities of the mortar.
     

 
KevinB said:
I love technology as much if not more than the next man, but an AGL is not going to replace ALL the capabilities of the mortar.

Especially not the cool factor the mortar platoons had.    ;D
 
Michael O'Leary said:
Especially not the cool factor the mortar platoons had.    ;D


dough_1121702c.jpg



;D

(Sorry for the side track, I just couldn't resist)...
 
KevinB said:
Angles - trajectory, velocity -- yada yada yada.

You need a mortar...

I love technology as much if not more than the next man, but an AGL is not going to replace ALL the capabilities of the mortar.
   

Oh, for sure. Just indulging hypotheticals here given the system that *is* in the system versus the one that regrettably no longer is.
 
One thing I suppose you could do - is get a variable porting barrel - that could dump a lot of the pressure in the system to give you a pretty low MV.

Of course - you'd still need a higher angle that the current mount allows - and the winddrift of the very light and now very slow round would suck.

BUT it could be done, other types of weapons have done similar things in the past.

 
KevinB said:
One thing I suppose you could do - is get a variable porting barrel - that could dump a lot of the pressure in the system to give you a pretty low MV.

Although, that would reduce MVs, it would also cause a lot of flash.
 
Not necessarily -- you could bled the gasses into something other than the atmosphere...
  Like a Suppressor  ;)

Like I said, its been done before.

 
Sigh I feel all of your pain.

It's so simple, which is why they won't accept it.
http://www.war44.com/misc/images/4/Vickers_machine_gun.gif

 
120mm GPS Shell Finally Arrives
  Article Link
July 26, 2012

After over a decade of screwing around and dithering the U.S. Army finally got guided (APMI) 120mm mortar shells into combat. A year ago some APMI shells were fired in Afghanistan, and it was discovered that some more tweaking was needed. Last April a regular (set up on the ground) 120mm mortar in Afghanistan fired some APMI rounds successfully. Recently a Stryker Brigade recently began using the APMI guided rounds from 120mm mortars mounted in Stryker wheeled armored vehicles. So far this year the APMI rounds worked as advertised in combat.

Development and production delays kept this from happening for years. But some pressure from the top (in response to lots of pressure from the bottom) made it eventually happen. It turned out that the new shell performed better than its specifications (the shell falls within a 10 meter/31 foot radius at least half the time.) That was good news, because Afghanistan is a place where 120mm mortars are very useful, and a GPS guided 120mm mortar shell was seen as very helpful for avoiding civilian casualties and reducing the amount of ammo you have to truck in.

The troops have become used to GPS guided ammunition, and the 120mm mortar has just enough explosives to take out most targets, if the shell is GPS guided. Moreover, each American motorized or mechanized infantry battalion has 4-10 120mm mortars, giving battalion commanders his own GPS guided weapons. This is a big deal. Precision weapons like smart bombs and GPS guided rockets and shells gives the user an enormous combat advantage, and saves the lives of many nearby civilians.

It was two years ago, after over a decade of searching (and procrastinating), that the U.S. Army finally selected a GPS guided 120mm mortar shell, from one of three suppliers (two American and one Israeli). All the systems were similar. The winner was one of the American systems, the RCGM (Roll-Controlled Guided Mortar). This one works by using a special fuze that includes a GPS unit and little wings that move to put the 120mm mortar shell closer to the target. Thus all you need do to convert existing 120mm mortar shells to RCGM is to use the RCGM fuzes (which handle the usual fuze functions, as in setting off the explosives in the shell, in addition to the guidance functions) in place of the standard fuze (which just makes the shell explode when it hits something).  The RCGM equipped shells cost about $7,000 each. The army promptly relabeled RCGM as APMI (Accelerated Precision Mortar Initiative). There are some things army procurement bureaucrats can do quickly.

To use RCGM, you place the fuse into a device that loads the target GPS coordinates, then screw the fuze into the shell, and fire the shell. It would also be possible to program each fuze once it is screwed into the shell, via a metal probe that would go into a hole in the fuze, transfer the data, and signal that that the transfer was accurately made.

As a result of adopting the RCGM, guided 120mm shells just got a lot cheaper and easier to use. This is particularly crucial for 120mm mortars, which are used by units close to the front lines, where not a lot of ammo can be carried, and resupply is riskier since the enemy is so close. Thus a guided 120mm shell means fewer shells getting fired to get the job done.

RCGM is not the first attempt to produce a guided 120mm mortar round. The army has been working on a guided 120mm mortar shell for a long time. Five years ago, the U.S. sent XM395 laser guided 120mm mortar rounds to Iraq and Afghanistan for testing. The XM395 Precision Guided Mortar Munition had been in development for 13 years, and was almost cancelled at least once because of the delays. The 17.3 kg (38 pound) XM395 round has a range of 7.5 kilometers, and will land within a meter (three feet) of where the laser is pointed. The problem with laser guidance is that the enemy often hides somewhere the laser cannot reach (behind rocks or a building). GPS guided shells get around this problem.

Unguided mortar shells cannot put the first round as close as guided ones, and requires firing several rounds, and adjusting aim, before you get one on the target. Normally, an unguided 120mm shell will land anywhere within a 136 meter circle (on the first shot). The shells that did not come close enough often hurt nearby civilians, or even friendly troops. The GPS guided shell gets it right the first time. A guided mortar round is very useful in urban warfare, where a miss will often kill civilians. The 120mm mortar round has about 2.2 kg (five pounds) of explosives, compared to 6.6 kg (15) pounds in a 155mm shell. The smaller explosive charge limits collateral damage to civilians. While the laser guided round will land within a one meter circle, the GPS guided one lands within a ten meter (31 foot) circle. The GPS round is deemed the most useful, especially since the troops are satisfied with that degree of accuracy in GPS guided 155mm artillery shells, 227mm rockets and JDAM bombs.
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