MP Unit Re-Org

[lawandorder]

CombatMp265 I guess you haven't looked at the Reserve MP QL3 course, the policing skills learned are VERY limited.  While we may have gained a good asset in terms of policing instructors, WHY do we need them? I don't carry Tin.  I as a reserve MP have no additional power then say a Infantrymen or a Cook when it comes to the law or military law.

You mention that introducing us to basic military police skills will create better candidates for Regular Force MP selection.  Perhaps, although most of the law portions of the RQL3 I already new from my diploma program which is required for consideration for a Reg force MP selection (Yes and I know the buts and exceptions to that rule as well)

Who say I even want to be a Reg Force MP???  Not many people I know in the trade want to make the jump from reserve to reg.  The Reserve Platoons are CS platoons, not garrison units.  Nor should the pretend to be.  So we may have gained a whole lot of assets, I'd say 80% of them are moot to the reservists world. 

 

[garb811]

The idea is that the Area Provost Marshall will be the CO. Namely, all area MP's fall under the same boss, just like the Regular Force.

Actually, prior to this, all Reg Force MP did not work for the same boss.  MPs in MP Pls worked for the CO of the MP Pl who worked for the Bde Comd who reported to the Area Commander…  The only link the MP Pls had to the MP Branch was via the Tech Net.  The APM/CO Grn MP Coy did not exercise Command over MP Pls, and until Spring 2005, the APM only acted as an advisor to the Area Commander, s/he had no command authority over any MP resources other than the personnel in his shop…  Same for the LF PM, he acted in an advisory capacity and didn’t have the staff to exercise Command and Control even if he wanted to.  I know that one Area was operating under a different model where the APM “controlled” all the LF MP in the area but that arrangement had no official authority, much like when Samson assumed command of the Borden Guardhouse while she was the Commandant of CFSIS.

As for reserve OCdts, they can aspire to be OC's. Sorry to say but reserve training is very ill equipped to train a CO for a "MP Battalion".

I don’t want to put words into his mouth but I don’t recall Poppa saying a Reserve MPO should be the CO of the MPU.  What he did say was he couldn’t be the CO of his Unit, which used to be a Reserve MP Coy.  Of course (current) Reserve MPO training is unable to train a Reservist to be the CO of a Reg Force unit because he is legally unable to provide oversight on police duties being performed by personnel in his unit (notwithstanding the deployment of a Reserve MPO to Bosnia as the TFPM…).  An OC is a much different beast than being a CO and I don’t blame him for feeling a bit put out that the rug has been pulled out from under him in regards to that. 

Even the hope of a Reserve MP becoming the Sergeant Major of the MPU is really only a faint and unrealistic hope, as the way it “should” work is the CSM should be the senior technical expert for the area, although many MPO like to think that their vast policing experience makes them the true experts.

Way off, depending on your funding model and your conditions of unit service etc. the reserve training funding budget can only increase if your using just the IBTS budget 37.5 days/year.

Admittedly I’m not an expert on funding for the Reserve world but isn’t 37.5 days per year the norm?  If so, how is the Reserve training budget going to increase with the amalgamation?  The MPU certainly isn’t going to get any more funds than that to train it’s Reserve component and you can certainly bet the CO isn’t going to sacrifice his Reg Force Police Ops O&M and Capital budget to increase the training days for his Reservists.

If anything, your gaining experienced policing instructors and "pooled" equipment/material resources/OJT opportunities.

Agreed, but…  The implication that you will have much greater access to those items is tenuous at best.  For instance, 1 MP Pl equipment is not going to be of much benefit to 12 MP Pl as they will be unable to easily access it.  Instructors, “pooled” equipment/material resources/OJT opportunities are great in theory but much harder to pull off in reality.  Although I had nothing but good experiences in lending equipment to Reserve Pls, kit breaks even with the best care and it won’t take long for resentment to build within Reg Force Pls when their kit starts being returned broken from weekend Ex’s.  It was hard enough to build a sense of ownership of the vehicles and kit when the Reg Force Pls were the sole users, imagine how much harder that is going to be when the Pl is continually being ordered to lend their stuff to successive Reserve Exs?  Of course, the same will be true in Reverse when 1 MP Pl returns busted Milverados which they had borrowed to move the Bde down to Shilo and there is suddenly a shortage of vehicles for the weekend Ex. 

Maybe instead of looking as it as a negative, lets look at it as a positive.

We could but that wouldn’t be half as much fun.  >

Result? Above average recruit for Regular Force MP selection that benefits the service the most.

How to put this delicately…although I can think of several outstanding Reserve MPs who I would bring into the Reg Force in a heart beat, I can also think of many more who I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole.  The unfortunate thing is most of the ones I think would be outstanding candidates usually didn’t want to transfer to the Reg Force whereas the other ones…

You've got some very valid points and maybe I will be proven wrong when this shotgun marriage produces beautiful offspring.  Of course, I could also be sitting in my chair in the T-Bird 20 years from now going, "Ahh yeah, bringing back independent MP Pls eh?  I remember back when I was young..."

I'll try now and expand a bit on what MP00161 was saying from our point of view. Although, when the last Army PM broached this subject and people far smarter than me were uncomfortable we were told that we weren't team players and if you don't want to be a part of it then quit.

Ahh, the good ol’ Patricia Samson motivational leadership lecture!  Didn’t know any of her disciples were still around.

 

[dapaterson]

There are a raft ideas that were not fully considered in creating combined Reg/Res units.  Two immediately spring to mind:

(1) Honoraries.  Since the new units are embodied in the Regular Force, the Res MP Coys will have no entitlement to Honorary Lieutenant Colonels (CFAO 3-4, Annex D for those who are interested).

(2) Code of Service Discipline.  Since the Reserve MPs will now be serving with a Regular Force unit. the National Defence Act stipulates that they are now subject to the CSD at all times... a significant increase in their liability.

Interesting issues to be resolved, to say the least...

 

[CombatMP265]

(2) Code of Service Discipline.  Since the Reserve MPs will now be serving with a Regular Force unit. the National Defence Act stipulates that they are now subject to the CSD at all times... a significant increase in their liability.

Interesting issues to be resolved, to say the least...

I think your refering to the Military Police Code of Conduct (MPCC)? The QR&O's still are in effect under the label of "Primary Reservist. Correct me if I'm Wrong.

 

[CombatMP265]

Admittedly I’m not an expert on funding for the Reserve world but isn’t 37.5 days per year the norm?  If so, how is the Reserve training budget going to increase with the amalgamation?  The MPU certainly isn’t going to get any more funds than that to train it’s Reserve component and you can certainly bet the CO isn’t going to sacrifice his Reg Force Police Ops O&M and Capital budget to increase the training days for his Reservists.

With the integration of the Reg's/Reserves you give more ammo to the reserve unit to turn around and justify to higher that you are indeed part of a regular force unit. But most importantly their role in the current system. In my units case, we are part of a Immediate Response Unit for natural disasters, etc. So that further justify's our funding to better train our people to respond to emergencys.

Agreed, but…  The implication that you will have much greater access to those items is tenuous at best.  For instance, 1 MP Pl equipment is not going to be of much benefit to 12 MP Pl as they will be unable to easily access it.  Instructors, “pooled” equipment/material resources/OJT opportunities are great in theory but much harder to pull off in reality.  Although I had nothing but good experiences in lending equipment to Reserve Pls, kit breaks even with the best care and it won’t take long for resentment to build within Reg Force Pls when their kit starts being returned broken from weekend Ex’s.  It was hard enough to build a sense of ownership of the vehicles and kit when the Reg Force Pls were the sole users, imagine how much harder that is going to be when the Pl is continually being ordered to lend their stuff to successive Reserve Exs?  Of course, the same will be true in Reverse when 1 MP Pl returns busted Milverados which they had borrowed to move the Bde down to Shilo and there is suddenly a shortage of vehicles for the weekend Ex.

Ok, kit breakage, etc. is an issue of leadership. Military kit, is military kit regardless of designation. While reservists are seen as 'weekend warriors' and 'kids' from the reg force. A condition is conventionally given to to Officers/NCO's from higher that they are not to be treated like so. I know it sounds confusing, but my theme is that "they should be no different" and that if a reservist or even reg force treats equipment without "inherent task risk" associated with that equipments role they should be held accountable for its breakage, etc.

 
How to put this delicately…although I can think of several outstanding Reserve MPs who I would bring into the Reg Force in a heart beat, I can also think of many more who I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole.  The unfortunate thing is most of the ones I think would be outstanding candidates usually didn’t want to transfer to the Reg Force whereas the other ones…

Apples and Oranges. I've been trying to avoid this debate but its enevitable. Reg Force are know to exert superior policing skills and the reserve force is known the exert superior soldiering skills (from the LF PM himself when I talked to him). But its an issue of assigned task that goes well into the history and varying roles of MP's across all branches over the years. I think this deserves a thread of its own myself and will leave it at that.[/quote]

You've got some very valid points and maybe I will be proven wrong when this shotgun marriage produces beautiful offspring.  Of course, I could also be sitting in my chair in the T-Bird 20 years from now going, "Ahh yeah, bringing back independent MP Pls eh?  I remember back when I was young..."

You've had some good points yourself, infact I don't think I can answer evey question. So I'm offering any MP here to give questions they'd like answered by the Provost Marshall himself as I'm attending the MP Symposium this month in Cornwall, ONT where there is an open forum. Although I'll run them by my OC first, to see if I get the answer sooner.

 

[garb811]

DAP:  That is an excellent point and there is also Sec 33, Liability to Serve, to consider.  I didn't even think any of these issues before you brought them up and I'm inclined to let the legal boffins ponder them as they're making my brain hurt.

I think your refering to the Military Police Code of Conduct (MPCC)? The QR&O's still are in effect under the label of "Primary Reservist. Correct me if I'm Wrong.

The Code of Conduct only applies to MP appointed pursuant to Sec 156 of the NDA.  In essence, DAP has pointed out there is a very strong possiblity that once the merge is official, all Army Res MP will be subject to the CSD 24/7, anywhere in the world, just like Reg Force pers.  Another possible consequence which the legal folks will need to figure out is if you will also gain the Liability to Serve inherent with Reg Force service as the Sec 33 of the NDA reads, in part,:

33. (1) The regular force, all units and other elements thereof and all officers and non-commissioned members thereof are at all times liable to perform any lawful duty.

This might seem like a bit of a stretch but I've seen other changes have just as many unintended consequences, ie.  the MPCC suddenly thinking it may have jurisdiction to investigate treatment of persons detained by the CF during combat because their mandate includes oversight of "custody" even though said custody is not being performed pursuant to Police Ops.

NDA reference for DAP's comment is:

Persons subject to Code of Service Discipline

60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:

...

(c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is

...

(ix) serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or...

May you live in interesting times...

 

[garb811]

With the integration of the Reg's/Reserves you give more ammo to the reserve unit to turn around and justify to higher that you are indeed part of a regular force unit. But most importantly their role in the current system. In my units case, we are part of a Immediate Response Unit for natural disasters, etc. So that further justify's our funding to better train our people to respond to emergencys.

I'm still not sure how this supports your contention that this is going to increase the training budget as you would (could/should?) have made a similar case while the unit was independent.  At the end of the day, "x" number of dollars is going to be assigned to the MPU to complete "y" tasks and training and those are going to be the sum of the previous indepndent amounts, if not a little less due to the MPU taking on some of the administrative burden of the independent units and therefore a bit of the pie to fund that.

While reservists are seen as 'weekend warriors' and 'kids' from the reg force. A condition is conventionally given to to Officers/NCO's from higher that they are not to be treated like so.

Really?   :    I had extensive dealings with Reserve MP for quite a few years and not once did I get direction like this “from higher”, either from inside or outside my unit.  The only time Army Res MP were ever treated like “weekend warriors” or “kids” was when they deserved it.  Those who came out and gave their all were treated as professionals and with respect by myself and, by extension, the rest of the unit.  We did have our share of problems, particularly in relation to Res MP not being able to understand that they were essentially "ride-alongs" for Police Ops as well as some others, but for the most part everyone worked together as a team without too much fuss and at the end of the day, most people learned a little something from everyone.

Ok, kit breakage, etc. is an issue of leadership. Military kit, is military kit regardless of designation. …I know it sounds confusing, but my theme is that "they should be no different" and that if a reservist or even reg force treats equipment without "inherent task risk" associated with that equipments role they should be held accountable for its breakage, etc.

Agreed, kit will indeed break, even under the best care and maintenance.  My point was that members are more apt to take "personal responsibility" for the kit when they have a sense of "personal ownership" with it.  I have seen both ends of the spectrum in a unit; when vehicles and equipment are treated as a “pool” with anyone and everyone using it, the effort spent on preventative maintenance is very low because the feeling is “why should I put the effort in when I’m not even going to be using the thing…”  On the other hand, when Bloggins knows he is responsible for CS 12C and that’s his ride for the next 12 months, suddenly Bloggins takes a very active interest in how 12C is maintained.  As an added benefit for Bloggins, he also has the ability to put some TLC touches in there…

Apples and Oranges. I've been trying to avoid this debate but its enevitable. Reg Force are know to exert superior policing skills and the reserve force is known the exert superior soldiering skills (from the LF PM himself when I talked to him). But its an issue of assigned task that goes well into the history and varying roles of MP's across all branches over the years. I think this deserves a thread of its own myself and will leave it at that.

This issue was not inevitable and was being avoided.  I was not comparing the soldiering and/or policing ability between a Reservist and a Reg Force member.  What I was doing was stating that whereas in your view this amalgamation would result in a pool of above average recruits for the Reg Force, my experience had been that most Army Reserve MP who had expressed an interest about joining the Reg Force were, in my opinion, less than attractive candidates.  Other than that, I will only point out that I would hardly consider the LF PM as the font of knowledge in relation to who has superior soldering skills as in all my time in a Field Pl, I never saw a LF PM anywhere near an Ex or Op I was involved in and I would posit that his comments were either made to be dipolomatic or were based upon third and/or fourth hand knowledge.

Edit:  Spelling.

 

[Dissident]

There is no doubt in my mind that we are loosing more than we are gaining, as members of reserve Coy now attached to a reg force unit.

It is pretty easy to picture something like this:"You plan on spending how much on a one week training event down in South Dakota? Hmmm, this money would be much better spent on [insert reg MP pet project or duty]. Don't worry, we will make it up by having you train for 3 weeks in Wainright with [cast of unenthusiastic, unwilling or field untrained reg MPs].
[me=Dissident]shudders[/me]

Again, a leader must accept change and be a positive force. I will make the most of it.

And really, I would much ratter be a second class citizen in an all MP organization, than be part of the SVC Bn again... (At least on the Vancouver side, apparently Victoria fared much better)