"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[TangoTwoBravo]

For what its worth, PMQs in Gagetown are policed by the RCMP.

 

[garb811]

PMQs aren't policed by RCMP, the roadways are.

 

[Franko]

PMQs aren't policed by RCMP, the roadways are.

So for domestic disturbances troops call the MPs unless it's on the road in front of the PMQ?

Regards

 

[garb811]

Pretty much.  I've never been to Gagetown so don't know the exact legal intricacies involved but it is something along the lines that the PMQs are not on the Base proper so DND doesn't own the roads.  At one time MPs did everything in the patch but it was not a properly approved MOU so that ceased 10-15(?) years ago.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

If two of my Troopers get in a fight at Griffin's (on the base proper) they get arrested by the MPs. If they get in a fight at a PMQ they get arrested by the RCMP.

 

[garb811]

If you have first hand experience of that happening, I can't rebut that other than to say that it "shouldn't" be happening like that; anything owned, leased or rented by DND is MP jurisdiction.

 

[Container]

I know both an MP and an RCMP member in the area of Gagetown. The memorandum of who does what has gone back and forth a few times over the last few years.

I dont know where it is RIGHT now. But in the last four years its switched a few times. So you can both be right at different times.

Its very frustrating for the people who live in Gagetown, and demoralizing for the police (on both sides). But Gagetown aside...

 

[George Wallace]

I know both an MP and an RCMP member in the area of Gagetown. The memorandum of who does what has gone back and forth a few times over the last few years.

I dont know where it is RIGHT now. But in the last four years its switched a few times. So you can both be right at different times.

Its very frustrating for the people who live in Gagetown, and demoralizing for the police (on both sides). But Gagetown aside...

Not to be pickie or anything, but the town of Gagetown does not have PMQs, nor do Upper and Lower Gagetown.  The PMQs are all in Oromocto.

 

[Container]

I apologize. Not being from the area, and only visiting my mother there a few times I only know it as Gagetown. I thought they were interchangable.

I am sure you've saved me future embarassment. The intoxicated lamentations of the mountie and MP remain the same though. Just move it a town over.

 

[George Wallace]

No apology necessary.  Most of us know what you meant, and usually do use the name Gagetown to refer to the whole locale as opposed to the proper place names even though officially it is Oromocto, with Gagetown (the town from which the Camp took its name) being well off the beaten track further down the river. 

 

[Tibbson]

As some have noted, there are certain areas where the policing responsibility has been handed over to civilian police but that was more due to geography and local politics then anything else. 

The PMQs in Gagetown were handed over although word is the Base wishes it had never happened and would like to get it back because of the poor quality of policing.  Also, the roadway areas of the PMQs in Winnipeg was turned over to WPS while MPs retain jurisdiction of the actual PMQs (you can see how much of a mess that turned out to be).

A number of years ago the Base Commander in Borden did a cost study on turning over all policing for the base to the OPP.  He quickly found that it would cost almost 4 times as much to have the OPP do it and all he would get in return was one constable on the base 24/7 with another on call in the area.  The base would have to pay for the salaries, an office, the vehicles and all costs associated with the civilan cop AND still have 6-8 MPs just to handle those matters that the civilan police could not (strictly military issues). 

On top of more money being spent the CF authorities would also lose any opportunity for info on what was going on within the Base.  Right now, Col Bloggins phones over to the MPO and says "Pte JONES didn't report for work this morning.  Any idea what is going on?" to which the MPO would answer "Yes Sir, we have him here for X offence(s)" but the OPP officer would just say "Oh yeah?  Well, thats too bad, have a nice day.....*click"

This was all years ago mind you and much has changed since then.  More will also change in April when the PM gets full operational control over all MPs regardless of element.  No longer will Base Commanders be able to deny things to the MPs just out of spite or apathy. 

 

[aesop081]

No longer will Base Commanders be able to deny things to the MPs just out of spite or apathy.

Yes because the MPs are soooooo hard done by. Base and Wing commanders are just out to "get them".

:



Edited to remove the needless cheapshot.

 

[garb811]

As some have noted, there are certain areas where the policing responsibility has been handed over to civilian police but that was more due to geography and local politics then anything else. 

Nothing has been "handed over" to civilian police.  If civilian police are now "policing" certain areas where MP used to do it, it is because MP shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.  In the good old days, a lot of arrangements were made at the local level that were not done properly which led to MPs "policing" areas where they shouldn't have been or responding to calls from the local police where they had no jurisdiction or authority to do so.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yes because the MPs are soooooo hard done by.

:

Careful what you wish for, you might have to start working for a living.

There is absolutely no need for a shot like this at an entire trade, you wouldn't except it, why should others have too?

Bruce

 

[Kokanee]

To take it a step further, do we really need the Military Police? :stirpot:

The pre-unification RCN saw no need for a military police force.  Why can't the RCMP, a federal police force, provide domestic police services and criminal investigation while a smaller "provost corps" made up of personnel (drawn from the combat arms) who are trained for the tactical aspects of the MP function serve for a posting or two and then return to their regiments?  For example an infantryman would leave his rifle company for three years, do a tour with the provost company and then go back to a rifle company (with a better understanding of the bigger picture).

That is one of the best ideas I have ever heard, period.

 

[OldSolduer]

In the "olden days" 2 PPCLI had an MP/RP Section - the MPs had a Sgt, MCpl and a Cpl posted and the remainder were Patricias.

It worked well. MPs/RPs manned the Info Post outside BHQ - like they are supposed to. MPS also manned checkpoints during road moves - like they are intended to do.

 

[medicineman]

In the "olden days" 2 PPCLI had an MP/RP Section - the MPs had a Sgt, MCpl and a Cpl posted and the remainder were Patricias.

It worked well. MPs/RPs manned the Info Post outside BHQ - like they are supposed to. MPS also manned checkpoints during road moves - like they are intended to do.

There was one just like that with 2RCR when I was there in the not so distant past.

MM

 

[garb811]

To take it a step further, do we really need the Military Police? :stirpot:

The pre-unification RCN saw no need for a military police force.  Why can't the RCMP, a federal police force, provide domestic police services and criminal investigation while a smaller "provost corps" made up of personnel (drawn from the combat arms) who are trained for the tactical aspects of the MP function serve for a posting or two and then return to their regiments?  For example an infantryman would leave his rifle company for three years, do a tour with the provost company and then go back to a rifle company (with a better understanding of the bigger picture).

To continue down the path you are taking, the same argument could be made of any CSS trade.  CANCAP proved pretty conclusively that with the exception of a very few positions, any of those trades can be replaced by civilian contractors in theatre and in the SLOC.  Hell, why do we even bother to have orderly rooms full of RMS Clerks in Canada?  Make them all PS positions, then they'll be able to actually get some work done instead of taking time out of their day for PT, parades, hair cuts, trips to supply, career manager visits etc etc.  It's not going to have an affect when we deploy, all we need to do is take a couple combat arms folks and make them the company scribe for the tour.

But really, do we have to have the "Replace MPs with the RCMP" tirades ad nauseum?  If you want to join on the pile on, there are a ton of threads in the MP sub-forum you can add your thoughts to.  I doubt any of them are going to be original though.

 

[McG]

To continue down the path you are taking, the same argument could be made of any CSS trade. 

I don't buy your slippery slope.  CANCAP and Public Service are civilian.  Members of the RCMP are members of a service.  Like CF service members, they have patroled with weapons & armour outside the wire in Afghanistan.

 

[mad dog 2020]

At first I was very upset at the very idea.  The RCMP could lose some contracts as provincial forces if other were to adapt a OPP/QPP regime.
So to maintain the giant machine and empire there has to be conquests.  As the monster grows. 
From my limited exposure since I retired as an MP, I see that the MP has maybe gone from a Mayberry type homey feel with a Big M, Little P to a big P.
So now it is a spec trade and most applicants are direct entry college trained Police Foundations and I tend to believe has possibly grown as a stepping stone to a civilian police career. Always an issue.
Our MPs have done an excellent job now and always as demonstrated in ALL taskings, past present and future.  I still recall the RP/MP regimental set-up.  It was an excellent option for  combat arm types to have transition in a viable civie trade.  But the remuster format is different now with the spec issue and police foundations.  To go RCMP would be a major mistake, to drop some young rookie kid into a military community would not be the best option.  A constant influx of persons on a learning curve at the expense of the military community and the labour intensive process of liaison and implementation.  More wasted effort, if it ain't broke don't fix it or leave it alone.
There are limited options to a person who does years and years in either a field unit or at sea.  So 30 yrs of humping a rucksack or sail after sail.  And what to do upon retirement. 
To think you will have a person go to a RP section and return to a field unit would be a hard sell. 
We experience constant change for the sake of change or to satify the annual review for some HR specialist in RCMP HQ.