"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[mover1]

good point. 

 

[S McKee]

Oh sorry about that Inf.,my fault as I digressed but as you see we are seen as clients.


I personally would like the Queens Cowboys to take over the true POLICE work in the C.F. and the   M.P.'s deal with the Miliatry side of their job i.e Mobility etc..
Leave the real Police work to the RCMP. as the M.P.'s can't do it.

You'll be happy to know Spr Earl as of 18 July, the CFNIS (MP) are now the primary investigative agency for all deaths (including suspicious deaths) on DND property. Obviously somebody thinks we can do "real police work".  Maybe it's the RCMP inspector that's seconded to the CFNIS.......

 

[MILPO]

Oh sorry about that Inf.,my fault as I digressed but as you see we are seen as clients.
I personally would like the Queens Cowboys to take over the true POLICE work in the C.F. and the  M.P.'s deal with the Miliatry side of their job i.e Mobility etc..
Leave the real Police work to the RCMP. as the M.P.'s can't do it.

Yes, a police "SERVICE" is that, a service which in turn has clients to "protect and serve"(the military community and assets in this case).  Why not have some pride in your own police service specifically trained to serve the military community.  It sounds like you have some major personal issues with the MP's.  MP's are trained to the same extent of the RCMP and can do the job just fine. I'm curious, could you explain to me how MP's aren't capable of doing "real Police work" when they receive the exact same training as the RCMP and other police services and how they take the exact same courses as other police officers do at the Canadian Police College, Ontario Police College and other police training centres? 

 

[DogOfWar]

Yes, a police "SERVICE" is that, a service which in turn has clients to "protect and serve"(the military community and assets in this case).   Why not have some pride in your own police service specifically trained to serve the military community.   It sounds like you have some major personal issues with the MP's.   MP's are trained to the same extent of the RCMP and can do the job just fine. I'm curious, could you explain to me how MP's aren't capable of doing "real Police work" when they receive the exact same training as the RCMP and other police services and how they take the exact same courses as other police officers do at the Canadian Police College, Ontario Police College and other police training centres?  

Generally when people complain about MP's its about the person in the uniforms attitude. Not their training. Ive known som guys who've been deferred over and over by other police agencies only to be picked up by the MP's. Their attitude was "well Ill guess Ill join the military police". There are good mp's and bad Mp's Im aware but I myself have had more bad experiences then good. Although the guys in Halifax seem like a good lot.

 

[MILPO]

Right, like every profession or career has a few bad apples.  But, when you are on the receiving end of disciplinary action from an MP or any other police officer, then people tend to look at the whole aspect negatively and try to focus their wrongs as the fault of an MP or police officer.  You're judging negatively a profession based on your bad experiences. 

I don't know if many people realize this  , but MP's and other police officers have to be assertive and professional when dealing with the public especially with some negative flack received from someone when dealing with a situation.  More often than not you will see self control and integrity from any police officer in a stressful situation, including MP's, as law enforcement usually fall into the same training and personality category. 

Now, what "police work" would Spr. Earl have the Military Police do?

 

[FastEddy]

Generally when people complain about MP's its about the person in the uniforms attitude. Not their training. Ive known som guys who've been deferred over and over by other police agencies only to be picked up by the MP's. Their attitude was "well Ill guess Ill join the military police". There are good mp's and bad Mp's Im aware but I myself have had more bad experiences then good. Although the guys in Halifax seem like a good lot.

As not to question the validity of your statements, perhaps you could describe the unfavourable circumstances of your dealings with the MP.

You also mention the general attitude of the MP when dealing with an occurrence. Could you be more specific ?.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know the certain MP have been, as you put it "differed".

A great number of MP Officers and Sr. NCO's read these posts, so therefore this information would be benificial to them in correcting these faults/areas.

 

[DogOfWar]

As not to question the validity of your statements, perhaps you could describe the unfavourable circumstances of your dealings with the MP.

You also mention the general attitude of the MP when dealing with an occurrence. Could you be more specific ?.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know the certain MP have been, as you put it "differed".

A great number of MP Officers and Sr. NCO's read these posts, so therefore this information would be benificial to them in correcting these faults/areas.

As a bouncer I recall having to toss one MP once a week. A troubled young man who drank waaaay to often. He would always pull that " Im a cop dont touch me" crap with me. Another MP attacked an American in my bar when he found out the yank was sleeping with his wife. We wound up fist fighting in that one.

As a teenager I dislocated leg and was on crutches one day i was driving downtown wth my crutches in the backseat I was pulled over by an MP and he demanded I open my trunk for him- as I didnt know what he was doing was illegal I went to get my crutches and he wouldnt let me get them. I had to walk on my bandaged leg to the back and open the trunk.

Ive worked with several former MP's as an LEO- one routinely used coercion in his investigations. He didnt see anything wrong with it. However there have been a few MP's that I have genuinely been impressed with. Mind you these instances are some at the most recent were 4 years ago and I am aware that the service as a whole has been undergoing some serious changes- and as I have said earlier I would say that my more recent experiences have been more positive.

HOWEVER many friends who have been trying to become police officers civi side for years and failing have gone on to become MP's. Its was there last chance at a badge. Did they make good cops? I would say so- BUT why is the military picking up the scraps from what the other forces wont take?

A college diploma does a good cop not make. But its seems to me-Although ill admit I dont have the inside track- like thats all it takes to be an MP.

Although I would say that with all the new training the MP's are getting they should be given the chance at least to handle all crime on DND property. If they show they are more than capable then let them have it. Police resources are taxed enough without having 2 tiers of cops.

The term is "deferred" Milpo. Look it up.   I wasnt attempting to slag your service- I was stating that when people complain to ME about military police it is generally because of a problem the person had with the (usually young) officer. Since my start in the military Ive found MP's to be pretty good guys. Athough Ill admit that Im not one for getting into trouble.

As for how I know the Mp's have been deffered- these are military police officers I knew before their careers in the military and whom I still am close with.

I personally am under the impression that the military police service as a whole has made great strides in prefessionalism in the last decade. Sure they have some distance to go still but thats because there are so many different directions that various groups are trying to pull them in. Talk to most RCMP members outside of an army/airforce/or navy base and I can tell you from my own experience that they arent dying to get a hold of the responsibility of policing the base. Understaffed already they would get more members on paper- but putting the warm body in the uniform is another thing altogether.

And to further this I think that most members of the military should get uncomfortable when the governement starts trying to take away something from the CF. It starts with the MP's and goes all the way down to trying to phase out light infantry.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Aaron,  I thought that was you...............hmmmmm

 

[canadianblue]

Generally when people complain about MP's its about the person in the uniforms attitude. Not their training. Ive known som guys who've been deferred over and over by other police agencies only to be picked up by the MP's. Their attitude was "well Ill guess Ill join the military police". There are good mp's and bad Mp's Im aware but I myself have had more bad experiences then good. Although the guys in Halifax seem like a good lot.

I've heard of more college grads that want to use the MP's as a stepping stone into a civilian police service. I think what might be a good proposal [keeping in mind that I'm not in the military yet] is that maybe they should allow more CT's so it is somewhat tougher to get into the MP's. For those members who would like to police the military community however are in a different trade let them do a CT without forcing them to take a Police Studies Diploma. I would like to do two things in my life, be in the military and be a police officer. If I could ever mix both, and still be seen as a soldier then I would do that.
As well don't alot of the members of the DND Fire Service come from seperate trades doing a CT correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[FastEddy]

As a bouncer I recall having to toss one MP once a week. A troubled young man who drank waaaay to often. He would always pull that " Im a cop dont touch me" crap with me. Another MP attacked an American in my bar when he found out the yank was sleeping with his wife. We wound up fist fighting in that one.

As a teenager I dislocated leg and was on crutches one day i was driving downtown wth my crutches in the backseat I was pulled over by an MP and he demanded I open my trunk for him- as I didnt know what he was doing was illegal I went to get my crutches and he wouldnt let me get them. I had to walk on my bandaged leg to the back and open the trunk.

Ive worked with several former MP's as an LEO- one routinely used coercion in his investigations. He didnt see anything wrong with it. However there have been a few MP's that I have genuinely been impressed with. Mind you these instances are some at the most recent were 4 years ago and I am aware that the service as a whole has been undergoing some serious changes- and as I have said earlier I would say that my more recent experiences have been more positive.

HOWEVER many friends who have been trying to become police officers civi side for years and failing have gone on to become MP's. Its was there last chance at a badge. Did they make good cops? I would say so- BUT why is the military picking up the scraps from what the other forces wont take?

A college diploma does a good cop not make. But its seems to me-Although ill admit I dont have the inside track- like thats all it takes to be an MP.

Although I would say that with all the new training the MP's are getting they should be given the chance at least to handle all crime on DND property. If they show they are more than capable then let them have it. Police resources are taxed enough without having 2 tiers of cops.

The term is "deferred" Milpo. Look it up.   I wasnt attempting to slag your service- I was stating that when people complain to ME about military police it is generally because of a problem the person had with the (usually young) officer. Since my start in the military Ive found MP's to be pretty good guys. Athough Ill admit that Im not one for getting into trouble.

As for how I know the Mp's have been deffered- these are military police officers I knew before their careers in the military and whom I still am close with.

I personally am under the impression that the military police service as a whole has made great strides in prefessionalism in the last decade. Sure they have some distance to go still but thats because there are so many different directions that various groups are trying to pull them in. Talk to most RCMP members outside of an army/airforce/or navy base and I can tell you from my own experience that they arent dying to get a hold of the responsibility of policing the base. Understaffed already they would get more members on paper- but putting the warm body in the uniform is another thing altogether.

And to further this I think that most members of the military should get uncomfortable when the governement starts trying to take away something from the CF. It starts with the MP's and goes all the way down to trying to phase out light infantry.

Well Breadwindow, very good post, comprehensive and intelligent, I would say that your opinion and concerns are well founded. I will try and give you my take on the incidents.

For the MP with a obvious drinking problem and abusing his MP status|, there is no excuse for that. I would suggest that you report the circumstances to his Detachment Commander, under lining the fact, that the next time the Civilian Police will be called and charges laid.

As for the scrap between the American and the MP, yes, it was inexcusable, but under those circumstances, the outcome probably would have been the same regardless of one's Branch.

Presuming you informed the MP of your need for the crutches, yes again I would have to agree, this is certainly not the way to properly behave or correctly appraise the situation.  And that would leave a sour taste in anybody's mouth.

With regard to the use of coercion, there is a very fine line in this matter and not knowing the facts or details of the cases, I cannot comment on this matter. However, as the Book says Coercion is out.

I have advocated in a number of my posts that Higher Education does not guarantee Caliber in the making of a good Police Officer.

Police Selection Boards are a strange thing, you can flunkout for a thousand reasons. Maybe its unfair to lump all of them who then decide on the Military as Scraps. Maybe those Departments missed some damn fine candidates because someone didn't like their face that day.

 

[MILPO]

It takes several attempts/applications for police applicants to get hired by any police service due to a number of circumstances.  i.e. life experience, too young.  It's a very competitive field with many qualified candidates and i can assure you that the hiring of any police officers, including MP's, isn't taken lightly.  Military Police have a lot to offer, even moreso than many police services, which is why there are many people attracted to the trade.

 

[GO!!!]

MILPO

I just have four questions for you in regards to a number of your posts on this forum.

1) How long have you been an MP?

2) How many civilian police forces turned you down before you blessed St. Jean with your presence in April?

3) What's it like to get promoted to Cpl having never been a Pte?

4) Without having attended Depot in Regina, or analysed the course content in an educated manner in comparison with the standards that are enforced in MP QL3, how do you manage to draw an equivalency with the RCMP?

Keep up the good work

 

[McG]

Yes, a police "SERVICE" is that, a service which in turn has clients to "protect and serve"(the military community and assets in this case).  

I can't say I like "clients" for MPs or civillain police.  It implies a service to individuals where the civillain police should be providing a service to the community as a whole (and any transients in it).  It also implies a relationship where the police service is employed by the the individuals it provides a service to.

MP's are trained to the same extent of the RCMP and can do the job just fine. I'm curious, could you explain to me how MP's aren't capable of doing "real Police work" when they receive the exact same training as the RCMP and other police services and how they take the exact same courses as other police officers do at the Canadian Police College, Ontario Police College and other police training centres? 

I thought the answer to this was suggested earlier:

The problem with the MP/NIS as an investigative police force as opposed to traffic control etc. is that they lack experience dealing with crime.

 

[McG]

GO!!!,
Lets try to keep it civil.

 

[MILPO]

I can't say I like "clients" for MPs or civillain police.  It implies a service to individuals where the civillain police should be providing a service to the community as a whole (and any transients in it).  It also implies a relationship where the police service is employed by the the individuals it provides a service to.
I thought the answer to this was suggested earlier:

I can understand were you are coming from, not liking the term client, but from a policing perspective it is about servicing the whole community and the clientele (which is the community).  Police services also operate with a business plan and provide services to the public llike any other government or private sector business.. 

The MP's and NIS deal with laws and crime thats why they are there, to protect the military community and its assets and provide safety/security services to the personnel.  Because you don't see it, it doesn't mean that it isn't there.  Certainly, there is less crime committed on a base or within the military compared to a comparatively sized city/town/municipality, but you have to compare demographics with a similar sized community as well. 

 

[S McKee]

GO I think your getting a little hung up in regards to civilian/ military police equivalency. Actually a good friend of mine ( WO Military Police member) is a RCMP recruit class facilitator/instructor at the Depot in Regina so I get a regular update on the training. He's been there for a couple of years, the branch was planning on moving all MP training to the Depot as a cost saving measure. The training is basically the same with the exception that the Military Police recruit has to learn the NDA as well as Crim Code statutes because we enforce both. And driver training is different. Law, Use of force, community based policing concepts and the nuts and bolts of police work are the same.

I do not agree with the instant Cpl policy of our trade, but this was done in order to attract higher quality candidates by offering them pay similar to a recruit on a civilian police force. I believe this is now under review. I did a service paper arguing against this for my 6B. Once a member is a Cpl he/she soon enters the promotion zone and I feel the danger is we will have promoted a number of pers who do not have sufficient time/experience in the CF and who are not ready for promotion. The average time to reach Sgt in our trade was 12 yrs a while back now it can be as little as 7, almost like the Cbt Arms.

 

[Infanteer]

GO!, cool it - there is no need for you to come over and professionally insult the MPs; they aren't doing it to you.

 

[Gunner]

The average time to reach Sgt in our trade was 12 yrs a while back now it can be as little as 7, almost like the Cbt Arms.

I don't think this is true (or common) anymore Jumper, but  I certainly agree it was this way back in the 80s when the cbt arms expanded.

 

[GO!!!]

MILPO

I just have four questions for you in regards to a number of your posts on this forum.

1) How long have you been an MP?

2) How many civilian police forces turned you down before you blessed St. Jean with your presence in April?

3) What's it like to get promoted to Cpl having never been a Pte?

4) Without having attended Depot in Regina, or analysed the course content in an educated manner in comparison with the standards that are enforced in MP QL3, how do you manage to draw an equivalency with the RCMP?

Keep up the good work

1) I should'nt have asked you this one, as the answer can be found in the "see last posts of member" function of your profile. Answer - April of this year - right?

2) I can't say for sure how many times that you were tried, tested and found wanting, but your avid defence of those who fail in their applications to police forces sounds to me like someone attempting to justify a lifetime of mediocrity and failure.

3) Make no mistake, you are an instant Cpl, no you have not earned it, and soon, you may lose it (re â “ assessment is coming!!). The rank of Pte exists for the purpose of training a soldier, and giving him the experience necessary to perform his duties and lead others. As you have done neither, you are supremely unqualified to comment on the actions of other enlisted personnel.

4) We've been over this one a few times in this thread and one from a while back that I started, but it is an accepted fact that the MPs are not as well trained, or as experienced as their RCMP counterparts. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible and just plain wrong.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way, just how you can imply that you somehow have the military experience and bearing that you speak so highly of is beyond me - you have yet to be in the CF a year?!?!

I've been told before to never offer criticism without a solution though, and to me it seems obvious. Revert the Military Police to a remuster -only trade. This will undoubtedly keep some of the immaturity now seen and the attitudes (pot, this is kettle) in check as the MPs would be a more experienced lot, and soldiers first. These soldiers would form the basis for an MP platoon, which would focus on MP duties (route marking, security, PW handling, base security etc) and keep a small detachment (2 maybe) of RCMP on each base to conduct investigations and press charges. Soldiers being soldiers and cops being cops. This would enable us to be far more choosy in the selection of MPs, than simply taking those who have not made it in the civpol world, but have the police foundations diploma.

Cheers

 

[Dissident]

I have stated somewere else before: Different police agencies have a different approach towards what trainning needs to be provided to their recruits.

Accross the country, there is just about as many different standards as there is police department. I am a little confused as to why the comparison between the MP and the RCMP keep popping up. Even though they are both federaly organized, they have a fair amount of different duties do contend with. There is only but one standard to be an MP, there is however many different ones for being a police officer.

Saying that MP's are not as well trained as RCMP constable represent a lack of understanding of the situation.