"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"
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GO!!! said:
Sounds like your looking for an easy way in (insert smiley scratching head here)....should i be so bold as to suggest that you could not get into policing and that is the reason why your infantry? Why don't you stick to the facts and not attempt to attack ones personal life that you know absolutely nothing about and by not making yourself look foolish. I have more experience in law enforcement before joining the MP's than you would like to think, spanky. So please keep your personal issues with the MP's to yourself and try to discuss the situation at hand, not your hang ups.
And I would assume there is nothing wrong with encouraging people who have had bad luck in making it into the competitive world of policiing now a days. Something called "comradeship" or leadership.
Cheerios.
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It's too bad this has devolved into useless jabs and personnel attacks. It's obvious members are not reading all the posts and are not interested in the facts just flaming each other. The fact is the MP do not require validation from an outside agency i.e. the RCMP (who are not an accredited police service, like the Edmonton Police Service) to do our job. Just like other trades i.e. the Cbt Arms do not need the validation of the Cbt Arms of let's say the Brits who one could argue have far more war-fighting experience than us, to qualify or give a seal of approval to a CF Infantrymen's training. To use the argument that we are not real police because we do not do "real police work" (although the people who have stated this haven't given me a definition of what constitutes "real police work") is analogous to me stating your not real infantrymen (sorry for picking on the 031s) because you aren't out killing anyone or involved in big battles. We are all on the same team, I believe we are all soldiers first (so I have to know the rudimentary skills of an infantrymen, does he/she have to know the rudimentary functions of an MP. No.) Regardless of the personal feelings of members who posted on this to this topic, the MP in their current incarnation are here to stay. In fact as I stated before we now have primary investigative jurisdiction over any and all deaths on DND property. We have our own (civilian trained) forensic ID techs, polygraph operators and the means to call on any outside expertise if so required. We have evolved over the last ten years. I have the utmost respect for all trades in the CF and no one should assume that they have the "inside scoop" on how this one or that one operates until they've walked a mile in their shoes. I'm all open to useful and critical suggestions, however our trade is so much more than the preconceived ideas that many have suggested. Hey I happen to think that one of the most hardest working trades in the CF are the Cooks, (I really got to see those guys and gals in action Kosovo Roto 0) now they deserve spec pay.
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Jumper said:
ABSOLUTELY.
Jumper said:
Agreed.
Jumper said:
Huh? Can you expand on this accreditation further? I'm not sure I'm understanding this (actually I AM sure that I'm NOT understanding this). What is this accreditation you speak of? Why isn't the RCMP accredited?
Retired CC
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POLICE PROFESSIONALISM AND ACCREDITATION
It is important to distinguish between the word (noun) profession and the word (adjective) professional because it is doubtful if the police will ever become a profession, but they can probably obtain the level of professional policing. The following chart summarizes some of the important distinctions:
Policing as a Profession
Professional Policing
1. an occupation with high social status and prestige (doctors, lawyers, clergy, professors, etc)
2. a specialized, white collar occupation that requires considerable formal education, strict entry standards for membership, a self-generated body of theoretical knowledge, a socially enforced code of ethics, and political autonomy to control its own destiny 1. an occupation consisting of people with special skills who are usually recognized for their non-amateur talents with money (athletes, plumbers, electricians, repairmen)
2. a specialized, any collar occupation with a defined area of expertise, its own professional associations, codes of appropriate conduct, and a sense of customer service (like the service ideal of a profession)
Professional organizations tend to indicate their desire to become a profession in various ways. Some of these include: civilianization (a high degree of staff professionalism); a "peer group" control structure (democratic leadership); a relatively flat hierarchy of authority (wide span of control); a low degree of bureaucratic rules and regulations (less paperwork); and incentive systems designed to increase autonomy (research grant opportunities or professional development funds). It is important to think of professional organizations as the opposite of bureaucratic organizations. One of today's biggest social problems is that emerging professions get siderailed by becoming bureaucracies instead of professions (a process that sociologists call the increasing bureaucraticization of professional organizations).
Accreditation is but one of three (4) ways to achieve recognition of efforts at professionalism. The four ways are:
licensing - results in a little slip of paper you post in your workplace (barbers, cosmetologists, etc.)
certification - results in a framed award you post in your office or filing cabinet (social workers, etc.)
registration - results in your name and some indication of your performance record being kept in a database by a private or public organization (dietitians, chiropractors, etc.)
accreditation - results in a large, framed certificate you post in your front office (schools, police agencies, etc.)
A license is permission to do something that is otherwise forbidden. Licenses are usually required or mandatory. The permission is power to engage in some dangerous activity, like use of deadly weapons, tools, or something that has life-and-death implications. Licenses are always privileges, not rights, bestowed by the government at the federal, state, or local level. They tend to accomplish restricting entry into a profession quite well.
A certificate is a statement or declaration that one has completed a course of study, passed an examination, or met the conditions of some competency-based or skills-based criteria. A certificate is a private, civil matter based on the idea of right to work. It is a statement of qualification that is intended to provide the consumer with some information about the professional. It also allows the professional to advertise or market themself in a competitive marketplace. Other purposes of certificates are to set standards in emerging professions and to educate the public.
A registration record is similar to certification. Database records are kept by private groups such as watchdog foundations or non-profit organizations, and some of the information (like the names of professionals who have been sued) is released to the public. Other groups, particularly state and federal agencies, who maintain such databases ordinarily do not release information to the public.
Accreditation is the receipt of a certificate formally recognizing the agency as conforming to some specific body of regulations and standards. It is also a status awarded to agencies that meet or exceed all requirements of the standard. It is essentially a compliance audit. It is good for five years, then you must get reaccredited.
In practice, many agencies (like policing) use a combination of methods. At the completion of basic training at an approved police academy, cadets usually take some sort of state board exam which is their "license" to practice as a police officer. This license (called the BLET certificate in North Carolina or the POST certificate in other states) is generally good in all 50 states and for life. Police agencies do not require re-licensing after a period of service.
Upon the completion of various in-service training programs (firearms qualification, CPR, investigation skills, VICAP profiling, to become an academy instructor), officers receive certification via a "certificate" that details the number of hours (6 hours-40 hours) of training received. Some certifications, like firearms qualification and CPR, require recertification after a period of service, but most are for life and placed on your resume in hopes that it helps with promotion and/or with articulating for college credit.
HISTORY OF ACCREDITATION
The idea of police agency accreditation began around 1979, and today, about 600 police departments are accredited because they are in compliance with 436 CALEA (Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies, Inc.) standards. CALEA is a non-profit organization that started out as an innovative idea conceived by the IACP and funded by a LEAA grant. The CALEA commission is a unique blend of civilians (university professors, business leaders, politicians) and professionals appointed by the executive boards of IACP (International Association of Chiefs of Police), NOBLE (National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives), NSA (National Sheriffs Association), and PERF (Police Executive Research Forum).
Once an agency applies for accreditation, they receive a copy of the standards and must begin a self-assessment study. This internal audit may take a year or more to complete; it is time-consuming and labor-intensive. Policies, procedures, and directives must all be in place and appropriate for an agency of its size. CALEA standards also specify certain kinds of equipment that the agency may have to purchase. Recruitment, selection, training, and termination of personnel are all areas of special importance. Then, once the agency is ready, CALEA agents make a site visit to observe operations, collect and read all the agency's documentation, and try to uncover anything the agency might be hiding or ashamed of. Then, the whole process repeats itself every five years.
Standards are usually classified as "mandatory", "essential", or "recommended" on the basis of the language used by the writers of the standards. If the standard reads "Agencies must have Crown Victoria vehicles that are no less than a year old", then the must statement makes this standard "mandatory", and there must be 100% compliance. If the standard reads "Agencies should have personnel policies for the hiring of 4-year college graduates", then the should statement makes this standard "recommended", and it is up to the agency whether it wants to meet this standard or not. The reading and classification of standards is more of an art than a science; it is more complex than the simple dichotomy of must and should statements. But, it is often made simple like this to involve employees in the self-assessment part of the process. With regard to compliance, all assessments rate the agency, on any given standard, as being in "full compliance", "partial compliance", or "not in compliance". Agencies are allowed to explain in writing why they are not in compliance or only in partical compliance on some standards, and CALEA makes the final determination by using both quantitiative and qualitative decision-making.
Benefits of Accreditation:
Disadvantages of Accreditation:
1. Nationwide recognition of desire for professional excellence
2. Increased community understanding and support
3. Elevation of employee confidence, esprit de corps
4. Increased confidence in agency by politicans & gov't officials
5. "State-of-the-art" phrase can be used about the agency
6. Clearly articulated policies and procedures manuals
7. Decreases in insurance premiums
8. Deterrence of liability litigation, lawsuits by citizens
9. Improved communication with other community agencies
10. Access to information about modern law enforcement
1. Fear that standardization of all police departments may lead to a national police force
2. Some standards set too low or too elastic, and an agency can always say standard goes beyond what local laws or conditions merit
3. Some police chiefs resent the implication that their rules and policies are somehow inferior or not up to par
4. Financial backlash: some politicians may see the agency's ability to get accreditation as the ability to do more with less
5. Resistance: some line officers and unions in particular resent accreditation if it's used as a shield for poor management, demands higher education or advanced technology training, risks job security
CIVILIANIZATION
Civilianization (the hiring of civilians to free trained police officers to work in the field) tends to occur as an aspect of movement toward professionalism or occupational differentiation when restructuring goes on in a police department. Currently, about 22% of municipal police employees are civilians (36% in county-level police agencies). Civilian police employees are allowed to dress as civilians, and there are never any expectations that they dress up as mock officers (with insignia or rank).
The practice of "farming out" sworn police jobs to nonsworn personnel saves money and frees up sworn personnel for other duties. Civilianization has been an integral part of the community policing movement from the beginning. Proponents of the idea, such as Guyot and Klockars, say it makes police departments more flexible. Evidence bureaus and Public Relations units tend to be the two areas that are civilianizing the most. Unfortunately, the spotty record of police agencies on civilianization is due in large part to the practices of using uneducated civilians and/or viewing desk jobs as the kinds of places appropriate for sworn officers who are relieved of their regular duties for whatever reason.
There are several Canadian Police Forces that have gone through this process, they will dosplay the CALEA accreditation sticker on their police vehicles. This is a highly sought after achievement.
It is important to distinguish between the word (noun) profession and the word (adjective) professional because it is doubtful if the police will ever become a profession, but they can probably obtain the level of professional policing. The following chart summarizes some of the important distinctions:
Policing as a Profession
Professional Policing
1. an occupation with high social status and prestige (doctors, lawyers, clergy, professors, etc)
2. a specialized, white collar occupation that requires considerable formal education, strict entry standards for membership, a self-generated body of theoretical knowledge, a socially enforced code of ethics, and political autonomy to control its own destiny 1. an occupation consisting of people with special skills who are usually recognized for their non-amateur talents with money (athletes, plumbers, electricians, repairmen)
2. a specialized, any collar occupation with a defined area of expertise, its own professional associations, codes of appropriate conduct, and a sense of customer service (like the service ideal of a profession)
Professional organizations tend to indicate their desire to become a profession in various ways. Some of these include: civilianization (a high degree of staff professionalism); a "peer group" control structure (democratic leadership); a relatively flat hierarchy of authority (wide span of control); a low degree of bureaucratic rules and regulations (less paperwork); and incentive systems designed to increase autonomy (research grant opportunities or professional development funds). It is important to think of professional organizations as the opposite of bureaucratic organizations. One of today's biggest social problems is that emerging professions get siderailed by becoming bureaucracies instead of professions (a process that sociologists call the increasing bureaucraticization of professional organizations).
Accreditation is but one of three (4) ways to achieve recognition of efforts at professionalism. The four ways are:
licensing - results in a little slip of paper you post in your workplace (barbers, cosmetologists, etc.)
certification - results in a framed award you post in your office or filing cabinet (social workers, etc.)
registration - results in your name and some indication of your performance record being kept in a database by a private or public organization (dietitians, chiropractors, etc.)
accreditation - results in a large, framed certificate you post in your front office (schools, police agencies, etc.)
A license is permission to do something that is otherwise forbidden. Licenses are usually required or mandatory. The permission is power to engage in some dangerous activity, like use of deadly weapons, tools, or something that has life-and-death implications. Licenses are always privileges, not rights, bestowed by the government at the federal, state, or local level. They tend to accomplish restricting entry into a profession quite well.
A certificate is a statement or declaration that one has completed a course of study, passed an examination, or met the conditions of some competency-based or skills-based criteria. A certificate is a private, civil matter based on the idea of right to work. It is a statement of qualification that is intended to provide the consumer with some information about the professional. It also allows the professional to advertise or market themself in a competitive marketplace. Other purposes of certificates are to set standards in emerging professions and to educate the public.
A registration record is similar to certification. Database records are kept by private groups such as watchdog foundations or non-profit organizations, and some of the information (like the names of professionals who have been sued) is released to the public. Other groups, particularly state and federal agencies, who maintain such databases ordinarily do not release information to the public.
Accreditation is the receipt of a certificate formally recognizing the agency as conforming to some specific body of regulations and standards. It is also a status awarded to agencies that meet or exceed all requirements of the standard. It is essentially a compliance audit. It is good for five years, then you must get reaccredited.
In practice, many agencies (like policing) use a combination of methods. At the completion of basic training at an approved police academy, cadets usually take some sort of state board exam which is their "license" to practice as a police officer. This license (called the BLET certificate in North Carolina or the POST certificate in other states) is generally good in all 50 states and for life. Police agencies do not require re-licensing after a period of service.
Upon the completion of various in-service training programs (firearms qualification, CPR, investigation skills, VICAP profiling, to become an academy instructor), officers receive certification via a "certificate" that details the number of hours (6 hours-40 hours) of training received. Some certifications, like firearms qualification and CPR, require recertification after a period of service, but most are for life and placed on your resume in hopes that it helps with promotion and/or with articulating for college credit.
HISTORY OF ACCREDITATION
The idea of police agency accreditation began around 1979, and today, about 600 police departments are accredited because they are in compliance with 436 CALEA (Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies, Inc.) standards. CALEA is a non-profit organization that started out as an innovative idea conceived by the IACP and funded by a LEAA grant. The CALEA commission is a unique blend of civilians (university professors, business leaders, politicians) and professionals appointed by the executive boards of IACP (International Association of Chiefs of Police), NOBLE (National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives), NSA (National Sheriffs Association), and PERF (Police Executive Research Forum).
Once an agency applies for accreditation, they receive a copy of the standards and must begin a self-assessment study. This internal audit may take a year or more to complete; it is time-consuming and labor-intensive. Policies, procedures, and directives must all be in place and appropriate for an agency of its size. CALEA standards also specify certain kinds of equipment that the agency may have to purchase. Recruitment, selection, training, and termination of personnel are all areas of special importance. Then, once the agency is ready, CALEA agents make a site visit to observe operations, collect and read all the agency's documentation, and try to uncover anything the agency might be hiding or ashamed of. Then, the whole process repeats itself every five years.
Standards are usually classified as "mandatory", "essential", or "recommended" on the basis of the language used by the writers of the standards. If the standard reads "Agencies must have Crown Victoria vehicles that are no less than a year old", then the must statement makes this standard "mandatory", and there must be 100% compliance. If the standard reads "Agencies should have personnel policies for the hiring of 4-year college graduates", then the should statement makes this standard "recommended", and it is up to the agency whether it wants to meet this standard or not. The reading and classification of standards is more of an art than a science; it is more complex than the simple dichotomy of must and should statements. But, it is often made simple like this to involve employees in the self-assessment part of the process. With regard to compliance, all assessments rate the agency, on any given standard, as being in "full compliance", "partial compliance", or "not in compliance". Agencies are allowed to explain in writing why they are not in compliance or only in partical compliance on some standards, and CALEA makes the final determination by using both quantitiative and qualitative decision-making.
Benefits of Accreditation:
Disadvantages of Accreditation:
1. Nationwide recognition of desire for professional excellence
2. Increased community understanding and support
3. Elevation of employee confidence, esprit de corps
4. Increased confidence in agency by politicans & gov't officials
5. "State-of-the-art" phrase can be used about the agency
6. Clearly articulated policies and procedures manuals
7. Decreases in insurance premiums
8. Deterrence of liability litigation, lawsuits by citizens
9. Improved communication with other community agencies
10. Access to information about modern law enforcement
1. Fear that standardization of all police departments may lead to a national police force
2. Some standards set too low or too elastic, and an agency can always say standard goes beyond what local laws or conditions merit
3. Some police chiefs resent the implication that their rules and policies are somehow inferior or not up to par
4. Financial backlash: some politicians may see the agency's ability to get accreditation as the ability to do more with less
5. Resistance: some line officers and unions in particular resent accreditation if it's used as a shield for poor management, demands higher education or advanced technology training, risks job security
CIVILIANIZATION
Civilianization (the hiring of civilians to free trained police officers to work in the field) tends to occur as an aspect of movement toward professionalism or occupational differentiation when restructuring goes on in a police department. Currently, about 22% of municipal police employees are civilians (36% in county-level police agencies). Civilian police employees are allowed to dress as civilians, and there are never any expectations that they dress up as mock officers (with insignia or rank).
The practice of "farming out" sworn police jobs to nonsworn personnel saves money and frees up sworn personnel for other duties. Civilianization has been an integral part of the community policing movement from the beginning. Proponents of the idea, such as Guyot and Klockars, say it makes police departments more flexible. Evidence bureaus and Public Relations units tend to be the two areas that are civilianizing the most. Unfortunately, the spotty record of police agencies on civilianization is due in large part to the practices of using uneducated civilians and/or viewing desk jobs as the kinds of places appropriate for sworn officers who are relieved of their regular duties for whatever reason.
There are several Canadian Police Forces that have gone through this process, they will dosplay the CALEA accreditation sticker on their police vehicles. This is a highly sought after achievement.
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Thanks, Jumper.
Can you post the link to the source? I have a feeling that there may be more discussion on the subject.
You've certainly given us something to chew on - once I've digested it, I'll probably have more to add.
Can you post the link to the source? I have a feeling that there may be more discussion on the subject.
You've certainly given us something to chew on - once I've digested it, I'll probably have more to add.
McG
Army.ca Legend
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The accreditation authority of a profession is typically apolitical (mind you, most professions also have a politicised organization, which remains divorced from the accreditation process and which members may opt to join). While I appreciate your effort to emphasise the police as professionals and not members of a profession, I do not hold any stock in accreditation given by a commercially & politically motivated commission (which the make-up of CALEA appears to be).
I certainly hope this is not a real example of a requirement. It may as well simply state that the requirement is for police agencies to financially back specific commercial enterprises. This is hardly professional.
This seems ludicrous. Was this qualifier invented by CALEA in order to validate its policy of civilianization? Aside from the police & the military, what non-civilian organization is out there that can claim to have put itself though "civilianization?"
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I'm not quite sure why you believe CALEA is a commercially and politically motivated organization? Anyway the International Association of Chiefs of Police as does the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police (of which the MP belong) do make political statements; however they are usually to raise awareness of issues concerning the police community at large and law enforcement trends and provide information to governments.
I think if you were to read the post again this was given as an example. Having said that, the Crown Victoria (police package version) is the standard for police vehicles both in Canada and the US. Services used to rotate between the big three, GM, Ford, and Chrysler however, GM and Chrysler stopped making police orientated vehicles some time ago.
You should find out all the information at http://www.calea.org/. If you look on the 2005 board of directors there is a Canadian (Ex Chief of Police for Lethbridge). Anyway as I stated before this is a highly sought after accreditation for civilian police forces and it is voluntary. A CALEA accreditation would not really be appropriate for the MP, allthough there was a rumor us going through the process a few years back.
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Jumper said:
DaimlerChrysler has re-entered the Police market with the Charger.
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If it where to be acceptable as a police vehicle it would have to go through a trial process, I don't know if DC has a police market in mind for this vehicle because it would require a different wiring package/ suspension etc. A few year back Volvo tried to squeeze in on the market we had a nice Volvo at the Guardhouse, although it spent more time in the shop than on the road.
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It's already being trialed, here in Windsor. Wiring and police packages aren't a problem, they've been in this game before. 
The biggest complaint so far seems to be, is that it may be to powerful for a regular patrol vehicle. ;D
The biggest complaint so far seems to be, is that it may be to powerful for a regular patrol vehicle. ;D
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recceguy said:It's already being trialed, here in Windsor. Wiring and police packages aren't a problem, they've been in this game before.
I'm all for more power.
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MCG said:
Again I'm not quite sure what your driving at? I don't believe CALEA makes political statements nor do any of the organizations that support CALEA like the IACP make any statements on it's behalf, as they are a separate entities with their own agendas etc. Let's be clear; The IACP (which is a reputable organization)along with other police organizations/ associations merely support the accreditation process. The statements made by the IACP or the CACP aren't any different than the ON College of Physicians making a statement about the dangers of smoking etc. hardly radical political activism.
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I've been reading through the past pages of this thread and noticed that alot of members think that with the RCMP their bases will have more with less. I don't think this is true at all, while I have little military experience, I have made observations both as a civilian, and as a volunteer with Edmonton Police Service. First things first, it doesn't matter which police service it is criminals will sometimes get away on technicalities, its happened out in my area. As well if anybody here thinks that the RCMP will give their bases better service I very much doubt this. The reason why is simple, in my area the RCMP are stretched thin, and bogged down with paperwork. Sometimes RCMP members can take hours to respond to a call. While my brother was a firefighter, the RCMP would often be unable to show up to call's of service, etc. While their have been complaints about the MP's on here, and many are valid, I think that the bases probably are safer with the police presence then lets say a town with the same size. I think that instead of getting rid of the MP's entirely, find a new way of training so that they can ensure that high standard that many of you look for in your police officers, this will give your community a better chance to use the resources at hand, as well as have a high standard of policing many communities would die for.
Once again just the opinion of a soon to be recruit in the CF.
Once again just the opinion of a soon to be recruit in the CF.
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I can see that, but with the current situation the RCMP is facing would it work. I can see perhaps municipal services taking over the police work on military bases, for example Edmonton Police Service taking over CFB Edmonton. As well don't other countries have civilian LE Agencies which oversea the policing aspect of the military such as in the United States and Great Britian. Would that perhaps work better??? As well the MP's are I think that 7th largest police force in the country, that would be alot of bodies to fill.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Futuretrooper
I don't know where you got your info on the US and UK, but both have large Military Police forces. British Red Caps are well known as are the humungous MP Bns in the US. Funny how we get by on only having MP Pls.
I don't know where you got your info on the US and UK, but both have large Military Police forces. British Red Caps are well known as are the humungous MP Bns in the US. Funny how we get by on only having MP Pls.
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