Naval Security Team

[daftandbarmy]

Please tell me this already happens, at least to some extent?

Brave efforts by big risk takers of middle ranks (on both sides of the high tide line) have been attempted from time to time, but were eventually defeated by smaller minds, and larger egoes, higher up the food chain.

Or so I've been told

 

[dimsum]

While sailors can be part of FP,

Please tell me this already happens, at least to some extent?

But considering there are Naval Reserve Divisions in most cities (and some small cities), that's not a bad idea.

 

[FSTO]

I don’t know who’s small arms expertise is worse, the regs or the reserves. Here is Regina we have Depot with a state-of-the-art rifle range. They have oodles of ammo and a few years ago were open to have us come down to use their facilities and ammo. We we told no by our betters because it would be too difficult to account for the ammo……so now we have to go to on the road for 2.5 hours to Dundurn once a year.
I’m going to get the kids at Queen to try again to get permission to use Depot.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don’t know who’s small arms expertise is worse, the refs or the reserves. Here is Regina we have Depot with a state-of-the-art rifle range. They have oodles of ammo and a few years ago were open to have us come down to use their facilities and ammo. We we told no by our betters because it would be too difficult to account for the ammo……so now we have to go to on the road for 2.5 hours to Dundurn once a year.
I’m going to get the kids at Queen to try again to get permission to use Depot.

That's frustrating. And probably a point where our logistics policies should be adjusted or a waiver given.

 

[Lumber]

Please tell me this already happens, at least to some extent?

Small boat operations being taught to the Army Reserve, small arms & ‘gun stuff’ taught to the Navy Reserve - both branches becoming more qualified & sufficient at a variety of skills.

Would also be a lot more interesting than some of the stuff we used to do for training nights/weekends when I was at my Reserve unit.

At the naval reserve unit I was posted to (STAR), we were collocated with 2 different Army reserve units (31 Svc Bn and 23 Fd Amb) and a detachment of a reg-force service bn. I think 31 Svn Bn have helped us with the use of their indoor light-powered rifle trg system (can't remember what it's called), but they certainly never helped us with actual weapons handling drills/range days, and we certainly never taught any of them about small boat handling.

 

[dangerboy]

I think 31 Svn Bn have helped us with the use of their indoor light-powered rifle trg system (can't remember what it's called),

It is called the SAT (Small Arms Trainer).

 

[FSTO]

It is called the SAT (Small Arms Trainer).

We had a SAT at Queen for a bit but was taken away from us. To be honest it was very clunky and I'm sure there are more modern systems out there that we could get our hands on.

Going to the range once a year does nothing for competency

 

[NavyShooter]

I've long maintained that the Navy does an OK job of training you to operate small arms.

They do not teach you how to shoot them well.

For a time in the 2010-2014 time-frame I recall that every single duty watch had to do a refresher with small arms as part of our daily force protection briefing. That was good - the sailors got a refresher on how to load, ready, and unload their rifles, and the POOW/OOD got a review on the Sig.

I'm not sure when that stopped, but it did help the sailors maintain their hand-skills with the weapons.

Unfortunately, they never got to the point of actually teaching you how to shoot or employ the weapons effectively.

I had exactly 1 (one) OOD who brought us up to the bridge and briefed us on his 'naval version' of a range card, and how that related to the real world with some useful questions.

• how far away is that bouy?
• how fast does a RHIB or Zodiac go?
• how long will it take that small boat to cover the distance from that bouy to the ship?
• how do you plan to escalate from waving a stop sign, honking an air horn, presenting a rifle, cocking it, firing warning shots, then firing to stop?

That OOD's briefing was actually useful. It made us think. He's now a CO of a ship.

The only organization in the RCN that actually taught marksmanship was the Shooting Team. Which, IAW NAVGEN 030/17 was formally shut down, and the responsibility for marksmanship in the navy was handed to the NST's and the NTOG folks.

I sat down and did the math on who the shooting team trained over the years at one point and realized that in the span of 10 years, we'd had over 300 people cycle through the team. People that were motivated, people that were skilled, and people who went back to their units to share the knowledge. Some ended up as the bridge rifleman, others went to the NBP, and a couple ended up with NTOG.

Having that 'salting' of 'seasoned' and knowledgeable marksmen (and women) throughout the fleet helped. Helped operationally, and in morale as well. Having a 'fun' thing to do was a good thing. The fun has gone, and those shooters are now mostly pulling time rather than targets.

Interestingly, one would think that jumping from the Navy to the Infantry would see a focus on marksmanship...because soldiers need to know how to shoot, right? Yes. They need to do the gateway qualification training (PWT 3) so that they can go on an exercise. The concept of doing other marksmanship training....yeah....there's no ammo budget for that. The COVID shutdown hasn't helped. Minimizing in-person training for 2 years has resulted in significant skill-fade in running ranges as well.

Marksmanship is a perishable skill. Sadly, it is quick to fade, and tough to relearn.

 

[CBH99]

Brave efforts by big risk takers of middle ranks (on both sides of the high tide line) have been attempted from time to time, but were eventually defeated by smaller minds, and larger egoes, higher up the food chain.

Or so I've been told

High risk takers = daring to have new ideas & take the initiative to make it happen

Good on them though, for trying.


I mean “if this is how it’s always been done” then I totally agree that “that’s the way we should keep on doing it.”

I mean when has thinking outside the box ever led anything positive in terms of warfare?

I don’t know who’s small arms expertise is worse, the regs or the reserves. Here is Regina we have Depot with a state-of-the-art rifle range. They have oodles of ammo and a few years ago were open to have us come down to use their facilities and ammo. We we told no by our betters because it would be too difficult to account for the ammo……so now we have to go to on the road for 2.5 hours to Dundurn once a year.
I’m going to get the kids at Queen to try again to get permission to use Depot.

How would it be too difficult to account for ammo?

Let’s say each member going to depot to use the range that day, is allocated 100 rounds each. And there’s 15 members going…

(adjust numbers as needed, Ofcourse. Nothing so difficult an elementary student with a calculator couldn’t figure out in about 20 seconds…)


Either the ammo could be sent with them, perhaps in a seperate vehicle if need be, or if he unit simply pays the RCMP for the ammo used.

It’s only complicated because stupid people, who either over-complicate things or don’t understand the riches of keeping things simple, are in charge.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It’s only complicated because stupid people, who either over-complicate things or don’t understand the riches of keeping things simple, are in charge.

It's OK, I'm retired now

 

[CBH99]

It's OK, I'm retired now

Damn, I wish I’d seen this before I went ahead & edited my post even further…

Time to do that coffee & bagel run! D&B, what can I get you sir? It’s on me…

 

[daftandbarmy]

Damn, I wish I’d seen this before I went ahead & edited my post even further…

Time to do that coffee & bagel run! D&B, what can I get you sir? It’s on me…

Victory please... Victory would be very nice thank you

 

[FSTO]

or if he unit simply pays the RCMP for the ammo used.

That's what I proposed to the big heads. They wouldn't go for it.

As I said, I'll get the kids at QUE to try again.

 

[CBH99]

We had a SAT at Queen for a bit but was taken away from us. To be honest it was very clunky and I'm sure there are more modern systems out there that we could get our hands on.

Going to the range once a year does nothing for competency

Most SAT systems I’ve seen at various reserve units have been fairly clunky & slow.

They were helpful though, in getting members some simulated range time each month.



I’ve been out for a decade or so now. Have those SAT systems been upgraded or replaced since I got out in 2011?

(Can’t be expensive at all, ours was PC based and used like Windows 98 or something…)

 

[FSTO]

Have those SAT systems been upgraded or replaced since I got out in 2011?

Gone with no replacement AKAIK

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Pistol handling and shooting is one of the most perishable skills I have met.

 

[KevinB]

Pistol handling and shooting is one of the most perishable skills I have met.

And significantly cheaper and results producing than rifle/carbine shooting.

Anyone who can shoot a pistol well, will be able to do fantastic with a carbine or rifle (outside of long distance work).

 

[Lumber]

It’s only complicated because stupid people, who either over-complicate things or don’t understand the riches of keeping things simple, are in charge.

You're ignoring that sometimes it's just pure fucking laziness.

 

[NavyShooter]

I may have bought between 7-10 air guns (pistol and rifle) for my reserve unit to use for marksmanship training. It's going to be part of our training plan starting in December.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I may have bought between 7-10 air guns (pistol and rifle) for my reserve unit to use for marksmanship training. It's going to be part of our training plan starting in December.

Great idea....

Ever since they shut down the 'In Armoury' .22 cal ranges, for health and safety reasons, we've struggled to catch up to our Cold War proficiency in shooting skills, IMHO.

I put far more rounds downrange as an Army Cadet than I ever did as a Reservist