Naval Security Team

[SeaKingTacco]

Great idea....

Ever since they shut down the 'In Armoury' .22 cal ranges, for health and safety reasons, we've struggled to catch up to our Cold War proficiency in shooting skills, IMHO.

I put far more rounds downrange as an Army Cadet than I ever did as a Reservist

I still, after three decades (plus) of Reg/reserve time, have not caught up to how many thousands of rounds I fired in 5 years as an Air Cadet…

 

[RedFive]

I don’t know who’s small arms expertise is worse, the regs or the reserves. Here is Regina we have Depot with a state-of-the-art rifle range. They have oodles of ammo and a few years ago were open to have us come down to use their facilities and ammo. We we told no by our betters because it would be too difficult to account for the ammo……so now we have to go to on the road for 2.5 hours to Dundurn once a year.
I’m going to get the kids at Queen to try again to get permission to use Depot.

When I was at Depot 5 years ago there were three indoor ranges, two of which were operating nearly 24/7 running cadets through the Firearms portion of the Cadet Training Program, and the rest of the time running Regular Members through the C8 course. The third was being renovated. Not sure how much time they have to load out anymore these days.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Great idea....

Ever since they shut down the 'In Armoury' .22 cal ranges, for health and safety reasons, we've struggled to catch up to our Cold War proficiency in shooting skills, IMHO.

I put far more rounds downrange as an Army Cadet than I ever did as a Reservist

The most time that I spent on an in-door range with the 9mm pistol was during my time at NDHQ in the 1980s. Yes, NDHQ. It called itself the NDHQ Shooting Club (or something similar). I became aware of it from a notice in Routine Orders. Club "membership" was restricted to serving members. The range was in the armoury across the river in Hull. We used service pistols and occasionally government supplied ammo; there were restrictions as to manufacturer/type of rounds that were bought by ourselves (there were times when the ammo was bulk acquired by the "club" executive). The shooting was done outside normal duty hours but was pretty much run IAW standard range practices.

 

[Booter]

When I was at Depot 5 years ago there were three indoor ranges, two of which were operating nearly 24/7 running cadets through the Firearms portion of the Cadet Training Program, and the rest of the time running Regular Members through the C8 course. The third was being renovated. Not sure how much time they have to load out anymore these days.

Considering they are starting troops of 7 people and cancelling other weeks…

But the present restrictions on outsiders on base would probably be an issue

 

[daftandbarmy]

The most time that I spent on an in-door range with the 9mm pistol was during my time at NDHQ in the 1980s. Yes, NDHQ. It called itself the NDHQ Shooting Club (or something similar). I became aware of it from a notice in Routine Orders. Club "membership" was restricted to serving members. The range was in the armoury across the river in Hull. We used service pistols and occasionally government supplied ammo; there were restrictions as to manufacturer/type of rounds that were bought by ourselves (there were times when the ammo was bulk acquired by the "club" executive). The shooting was done outside normal duty hours but was pretty much run IAW standard range practices.

Also, if there's one activity in the CAF where DEI principles can be seen in action it's marksmanship.

There's nothing like watching a tiny little BIPOC lady effortlessly outshoot all us 'Pale, Male and Stale' people

 

[RedFive]

Considering they are starting troops of 7 people and cancelling other weeks…

But the present restrictions on outsiders on base would probably be an issue

Unreal. And we're about to face a municipal election in Surrey where most of the candidates have stated they want a referendum or they will outright disband SPS in favour of RCMP. Where the hell are we going to get the members to go back...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

When I was competing in IPSC, every weekend I burned off 200 rounds of pistol ammo and about 300 of .22cal. If I did a "Skill and Drills" night with my instructor, that was another 300rds. I still burn off about 150rds of pistol and 30 or so of rifle, plus 200 of .22cal when I go out shooting.

Hopefully the army buys .22cal sub calibre kits for any pistols they buy.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Unreal. And we're about to face a municipal election in Surrey where most of the candidates have stated they want a referendum or they will outright disband SPS in favour of RCMP. Where the hell are we going to get the members to go back...

Oh come on now... who wouldn't want to work somewhere where they'd get a chance to arrest the Mayor?

Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum charged with public mischief over claims his foot was run over​

Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum charged with public mischief over claims his foot was run over | Globalnews.ca

The incident was alleged to have happened Sept. 4 in the parking lot of a Save-On-Foods. The mayor claimed he was “verbally assaulted” and hit by a car.

globalnews.ca

 

[RedFive]

Oh come on now... who wouldn't want to work somewhere where they'd get a chance to arrest the Mayor?

Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum charged with public mischief over claims his foot was run over​

Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum charged with public mischief over claims his foot was run over | Globalnews.ca

The incident was alleged to have happened Sept. 4 in the parking lot of a Save-On-Foods. The mayor claimed he was “verbally assaulted” and hit by a car.

globalnews.ca

I was involved in that investigation.

Not worth it.

 

[FSTO]

Reviving this thread as a placeholder for a possible renewed and revived Naval Security Team.

 

[stoker dave]

I just read this. A useful discussion. I will add that 'back in my day' (a billion years ago or so) the ship's engineering officers stood OOD watches in harbour (that included foreign ports, and yes even during Gulf War). It was always a little uncertain that the ship would still be tied to the dock at the end of that watch.....

As an MSEO, after basic training I had precisely zero experience with weapons and certainly no training in how to protect the ship from a hostile threat. As an OOD I really would have had no idea what to do if someone came running towards the ship with a weapon or if a small boat (with obviously hostile intentions) approached the ship. At the time I thought that was a pretty serious gap in capability but as a very junior officer had no ideas about what to do about it.

As an MSEO, my focus, training, and role was entirely related to the engineering aspects of the ship (i.e. keeping it afloat, moving and not on fire. Keeping the lights on and the beer fridge running were a bonus.)

I trust things are changing and capabilities are being developed to respond to the threat(s).

Is the training for MSEOs to act as OOD any better?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I just read this. A useful discussion. I will add that 'back in my day' (a billion years ago or so) the ship's engineering officers stood OOD watches in harbour (that included foreign ports, and yes even during Gulf War). It was always a little uncertain that the ship would still be tied to the dock at the end of that watch.....

As an MSEO, after basic training I had precisely zero experience with weapons and certainly no training in how to protect the ship from a hostile threat. As an OOD I really would have had no idea what to do if someone came running towards the ship with a weapon or if a small boat (with obviously hostile intentions) approached the ship. At the time I thought that was a pretty serious gap in capability but as a very junior officer had no ideas about what to do about it.

As an MSEO, my focus, training, and role was entirely related to the engineering aspects of the ship (i.e. keeping it afloat, moving and not on fire. Keeping the lights on and the beer fridge running were a bonus.)

I trust things are changing and capabilities are being developed to respond to the threat(s).

Is the training for MSEOs to act as OOD any better?

All OODs (CPO2s included) have to go through a package and sit a board and FP (Force Protection) plays a big role in that. I would hazard a guess things are very different now.

 

[stoker dave]

All OODs (CPO2s included) have to go through a package and sit a board and FP (Force Protection) plays a big role in that. I would hazard a guess things are very different now.

Thank you.

I will share this anecdote. I failed my first OOD board. I was an A/SLt engineer. During the board I was asked how I would manage and co-ordinate a 'cold move' (that is when a tug boat moves the ship from one dock to another). During the board, I was told the POOD was a bos'n (an individual well versed in all things like cold moves).

My response in the board was to call the POOD and tell him we were doing a cold move and to please make it happen in a safe and timely manner.
Fail.

I was supposed to 'take charge and give direction'. Having zero experience in this area, I thought calling on the available expert was the right answer and being the 'know-it-all' junior officer was the wrong answer.

For my next board, I gave the politically correct answer (why yes! I took the training course and know exactly how to do a 'cold move' having never seen one or been involved in one!) and passed the board.

 

[FSTO]

As the Acting Subbie, your only mistake was not to mention that you greet the QHM (now KHM) pilot at the brow and escort them to the bridge.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I just read this. A useful discussion. I will add that 'back in my day' (a billion years ago or so) the ship's engineering officers stood OOD watches in harbour (that included foreign ports, and yes even during Gulf War). It was always a little uncertain that the ship would still be tied to the dock at the end of that watch.....

As an MSEO, after basic training I had precisely zero experience with weapons and certainly no training in how to protect the ship from a hostile threat. As an OOD I really would have had no idea what to do if someone came running towards the ship with a weapon or if a small boat (with obviously hostile intentions) approached the ship. At the time I thought that was a pretty serious gap in capability but as a very junior officer had no ideas about what to do about it.

As an MSEO, my focus, training, and role was entirely related to the engineering aspects of the ship (i.e. keeping it afloat, moving and not on fire. Keeping the lights on and the beer fridge running were a bonus.)

I trust things are changing and capabilities are being developed to respond to the threat(s).

Is the training for MSEOs to act as OOD any better?

You got the “keeping the lights on” and “beer fridge” in the wrong order….

 

[daftandbarmy]

I just read this. A useful discussion. I will add that 'back in my day' (a billion years ago or so) the ship's engineering officers stood OOD watches in harbour (that included foreign ports, and yes even during Gulf War). It was always a little uncertain that the ship would still be tied to the dock at the end of that watch.....

As an MSEO, after basic training I had precisely zero experience with weapons and certainly no training in how to protect the ship from a hostile threat. As an OOD I really would have had no idea what to do if someone came running towards the ship with a weapon or if a small boat (with obviously hostile intentions) approached the ship. At the time I thought that was a pretty serious gap in capability but as a very junior officer had no ideas about what to do about it.

As an MSEO, my focus, training, and role was entirely related to the engineering aspects of the ship (i.e. keeping it afloat, moving and not on fire. Keeping the lights on and the beer fridge running were a bonus.)

I trust things are changing and capabilities are being developed to respond to the threat(s).

Is the training for MSEOs to act as OOD any better?

To be fair, even the Infantry doesn't teach you any of that stuff either in your training unless you happen to be spooling up for a COIN/FP related operation - or they didn't at any rate.

They do in the UK, for obvious reasons...

 

[stoker dave]

Apologies for taking this discussion off topic but I think it useful to illustrate the possible discrepancies between what the OOD is expected to do in force protection, the training provided to the OOD and how things might actually work in the real world.

I am pleased to hear that OODs are now expected to have some training and knowledge on how to protect the ship. Let's all hope that attacks on Canadian ships in harbours remains a low probability event.

 

[Halifax Tar]

As the Acting Subbie, your only mistake was not to mention that you greet the QHM (now KHM) pilot at the brow and escort them to the bridge.

Thats a LogO job now. Have give them something to do

 

[Navy_Pete]

Thank you.

I will share this anecdote. I failed my first OOD board. I was an A/SLt engineer. During the board I was asked how I would manage and co-ordinate a 'cold move' (that is when a tug boat moves the ship from one dock to another). During the board, I was told the POOD was a bos'n (an individual well versed in all things like cold moves).

My response in the board was to call the POOD and tell him we were doing a cold move and to please make it happen in a safe and timely manner.
Fail.

I was supposed to 'take charge and give direction'. Having zero experience in this area, I thought calling on the available expert was the right answer and being the 'know-it-all' junior officer was the wrong answer.

For my next board, I gave the politically correct answer (why yes! I took the training course and know exactly how to do a 'cold move' having never seen one or been involved in one!) and passed the board.

It's all a bit of common sense; everyone has the same board questions, and is expected to be able to get the same things done. But when you are on duty in foreign port, there are a few officers of the day, and they always mix them. When I was OOD as the EO, the 2nd was always from the Cbt Dept and would be the FP lead (if there wasn't a specific FP officer), and if there was a random subbie as 3rd they would do ceremonial.

I got the same board question btw, answered IAW the book for the board, then when I actually had a 1600 cold move at 10 minutes notice, I found a buffer from another ship that came over to help as we had zero bosuns or similar on duty. Which is good, because my next step was to start recalling the deck department.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Rather unusual not to have a single bosn on a whole harbour duty watch.

Personally, I thought he failed because he didn't mention: I would inform the captain and the XO. There's nothing that a captain hates more than coming into the dockyard and not finding his/her ship where they left it.