Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks

[Eaglelord17]

You mean the following ranks that are listed in QR&O Vol I, Chap 3: Trooper, Gunner, Sapper, Signaller, Private, Guardsman, Fusilier, Rifleman, Voltigeur, Craftsman, Musician, Piper, Drummer, Ranger, Bombardier, Colour Sergeant

They exist.  Just because you think they don't doesn't mean you aren't wrong.

They exist NOW. Post unification to 2015 (when they also brought in the Pips and Crowns) those ranks didn't exist. Yet there was many times where I was screamed at by some angry artyman about the fact I called him a MCpl not a MBdr (usually with some line about what MCpl do you know that can blow up people from 16+ KM away  ;D). The fact that the CAF tolerated such a blatant disregard for its own ranks and allowed soldiers to harass others for not using their, at the time, non-existent rank is actually somewhat angering. There is a difference between having a informal title for a rank, such as the Navy calling members ODs or Killicks, and actively enforcing upon others a rank that doesn't exist when they are using your correct title.

 

[Blackadder1916]

They exist NOW. Post unification to 2015 (when they also brought in the Pips and Crowns) those ranks didn't exist. . . .

And they existed post unification.

National Defence Act - Version of document from 2003-01-01 to 2003-07-01:  The versions of the NDA prior to that are not available on-line.

Ranks of officers and non-commissioned members

21 (1) For the purposes of this Act, the ranks of the officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Forces shall be as set out in Column I of the schedule.

Marginal note:Use of other designations

(2) The Governor in Council may make regulations prescribing the circumstances in which a person holding a rank set out in Column I of the schedule shall use, or be referred to by, a designation of rank set out in Column II, III or IV of the schedule opposite the rank held by that person.

R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 21R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 60

The Schedule

Bombardier

Trooper
Gunner
Sapper
Signalman
Private
Guardsman
Fusilier
Rifleman
Craftsman

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

There is only one problem with your last post, Blackadder: The only regulation ever enacted by the Governor General in Council under Section 21 (2) of the NDA, prior to 2015, prescribed only the use of column II designations for Maritime Command.

The Army titles you described are from column III and it was never enacted prior to 2015. Therefore, it was wrong for anyone to demand their use before that time.

 

[MJP]

The Army titles you described are from column III and it was never enacted prior to 2015. Therefore, it was wrong for anyone to demand their use before that time.

Whew I thought I was going crazy. I don't mind being wrong, but could have sworn that they all became ranks in 2015 despite their usage before then by a few branches

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm guessing sailor first class and the others will be shortened to sailor. Won't that be like mixing private corporal and master corporal all into one caragory, like shortening them all to soldier? It kind of seems like it's going the opposite direction of corporal and master corporal standing out as NCOs.

Why wouldn't they stick with able sailor, leading sailor and master sailor?

 

[FSTO]

Correct me if I'm wrong OGBD, but isn't the new English ranks just direct translations of the French ones? If so, is there really a need to get an order in council completed? What was done when the French translation of the officer ranks were introduced?

I've become agnostic to the rank change, (don't be surprised if "Chief" is next on the hit list) but what really annoys me is the constant self-congratulations and what opines of what a game changer this will be. I predict that we won't be getting one extra sailor in the recruiting office because of this.

 

[Kilted]

Whew I thought I was going crazy. I don't mind being wrong, but could have sworn that they all became ranks in 2015 despite their usage before then by a few branches

None of those ranks were new, they just weren't in the NDA. They were still used the same way that there are today.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Correct me if I'm wrong OGBD, but isn't the new English ranks just direct translations of the French ones? If so, is there really a need to get an order in council completed? What was done when the French translation of the officer ranks were introduced?

Actually, in my experience with the GoC, things are always done in English, and then bad translators try and make them fit in French somehow. The use of matelot first, second, third class in French always appeared to be just that: a lack of research and imagination on the part of the translators. It would have been more correct to call the AB and LS "Quartier-Maitres" but they didn't go that way.

Nevertheless, when the "new" (actually: more-properly-translated) French officer ranks were introduced, the Schedule in the French version of the NDA had to be amended. IIRC, it was done in the middle of one of those omnibus Bills that effect various corrections to laws considered administrative in nature - so it just whizzed through the process.

Seems to me same is required here. So long as the Schedule to the NDA says OS, AB, LS and MS and Column II is in effect as per the Order in Council, then those are the only legal ranks that can be used in anything official. In every day usage, however, we are free to address each other as we, the military, see fit - so long as we use the proper rank in all official situations.

That's part of how we got the change in French officers ranks: We wilfully stopped using "Lieutenant-Commandeur" and "Commandeur" and started using Capitaine de Corvette and Capitaine de Fregate in everyday use at the only true French language unit (NCSM MONTCALM) and pushed memo after memo to Ottawa. I think the ultimate argument that won was when we pointed out that "commandeur" in French has the single meaning of "leader of a religious Faith". That was a bit incompatible with what we did.  :nod:

 

[McG]

You mean the following ranks that are listed in QR&O Vol I, Chap 3: Trooper, Gunner, Sapper, Signaller, Private, Guardsman, Fusilier, Rifleman, Voltigeur, Craftsman, Musician, Piper, Drummer, Ranger, Bombardier, Colour Sergeant

As an aside, what are the chances that (when this does get pushed to proper approval paths) the government allows changes to Seaman without also demanding changes to Guardsman, Rifleman, and Craftsman?

 

[dapaterson]

Actually, in my experience with the GoC, things are always done in English, and then bad translators try and make them fit in French somehow.

In fact, for Federal regulations, the drafting is done simultaneously by qualified English and French lawyers.  Subordinate policy documents may be translated, but the regulations themselves are drafted in both languages.

 

[Navy_Pete]

In fact, for Federal regulations, the drafting is done simultaneously by qualified English and French lawyers.  Subordinate policy documents may be translated, but the regulations themselves are drafted in both languages.

My wife worked in that section for a while; can confirm this. Sometimes they draft clauses in French because it's more precise then base the English version on that to make sure they are the same, but it's a really skilled group of very smart people that write the bills and they do it both simultaneously to make sure they are consistent. The fact that the bills can sometimes be stupid anyway is down to the client departments and what they want in there, and not explaining things properly to the drafters, who have very little/no knowledge on the specific topic. Sometimes mistakes get made, but after having to read through other countries legislation for some things, think our folks do a really good job on all the modern stuff.

 

[MJP]

None of those ranks were new, they just weren't in the NDA. They were still used the same way that there are today.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  Tracking they are not new, my understanding was they were not in force until 2015 but Blackadder's post gave me a moment of doubt.

 

[Blackadder1916]

There is only one problem with your last post, Blackadder: The only regulation ever enacted by the Governor General in Council under Section 21 (2) of the NDA, prior to 2015, prescribed only the use of column II designations for Maritime Command.

The Army titles you described are from column III and it was never enacted prior to 2015. Therefore, it was wrong for anyone to demand their use before that time.

I am appropriately chastised.  I should have dove deeper.

Not to make excuses of aluminum mess tin induced confusion, but I seemed to recall in the mists of time actually seeing it written (when the dissemination of orders and regulations required the harvesting and processing of trees into paper) authorizing the use of those alternative army titles for privates and corporals.  It may have been in CFAOs (there was a CFAO 3-2 Ranks and Designation of Ranks, cancelled by change 23/87) or in A-AD-200-000/AG-000, Honours, Flags and The Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces (the current on-line version of the same numbered pub was heavily amended over time but the last change was in 2008).  In the Annex A to Chap 11, Military Forms of Address, they include all those alternative titles, though there is little direction about the when, where and whom of so using.  Unfortunately, I've been unable to so far find copies of previous versions of those pubs to see if they included such direction.

And in an August 2011 version of Standing Orders for The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery, they include the following:
https://www.vancouvergunners.ca/uploads/2/5/3/2/25322670/rca_standing_orders_vol_1_aug_2011.pdf

2. The terms "Master Bombardier", "Bombardier" and "Gunner" are used by convention and
tradition within The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery. "Master Bombardier" is the
appropriate designation for a Master Corporal who is a member of The Royal Regiment of
Canadian Artillery. The term "Master Corporal" shall be used when referring to any Master
Corporal who is not a member of The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery even though he may
be serving with an artillery unit. The same rule applies to the use of the terms "Bombardier" /
"Corporal" and "Gunner" / "Private". They are not, however, official rank designations.

Edited to add:

I've located a previous PDF version of the CFP 200 (pages effective to ch 4, 2004) and the Annex A table to Chap 11 does not include the alternative rank titles.  Now I'm having the moments of doubt.

 

[FJAG]

If you think we've got it rough:

German military mulls bringing in feminine form for army ranks
Under current system a female captain, for example, is called Frau Hauptmann – Mrs Captain

Germany is considering introducing feminine forms for military ranks, according to reports, 20 years after women gained the right to join the Bundeswehr.

The army has resisted using the feminine form even after women gained the right to join in 2000. A female captain in the Bundeswehr is addressed as Frau Hauptmann, the equivalent of “Mrs Captain”.

But the defence minister, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, is now mulling the phasing in of feminine forms for military ranks, such as Majorin and Leutnantin, according to Die Welt.

Such a move would follow the usage in the German language, where occupations usually go with the grammatically masculine form of the noun, but if the job is carried out by a woman, the job title is feminised by adding the suffix “in”, so a male bus driver is der Busfahrer and a female bus driver is die Busfahrerin.

Some ranks, including Oberst – colonel – however, would stay in the generic masculine form, said the report, citing a white paper that it said the minister would decide on next Tuesday. The German defence ministry would not confirm the report.

The Bundeswehr opened its ranks to women only after Tanja Kreil brought a case before the European court of justice in 2000. A trained electrician, Kreil argued her application to the Bundeswehr was rejected not because of her qualifications but because of her gender.

Women now make up about 12% of army personnel. Eva Högl, the German parliamentary commissioner for the armed forces, told Süddeutsche Zeitung on Friday that “a 30% share of women in the Bundeswehr would be good for the troops”, but that female recruits were “currently not everywhere respected equally”.

Some female soldiers criticised the proposed change on social media. Wiebke Hönicke, a lieutenant who used the masculine form to describe her rank, said in a post on Instagram: “Gender equality for me means that military rank doesn’t differentiate between genders, but that it is about the same rights and duties.”

See article here.

This article only scratches the surface of the problem.

The example above relates to the addition of a "polite" address of an individual. For example a Captain ("Hauptmann" literally "head man") would be addressed as Herr Hauptmann (or Mister Captain) but you'll note it also includes the term "mann". So the change would probably have to delete "mann". Regardless, either option sounds as silly in German as it does in English.

There is one further problem which is that in German, every noun is either masculine, feminine or neuter which is most noticeable when the article "the" is used. In German that's "die" (f); "der" (m) or "das" . Such as in "die schule" (the schoool); "der Hauptmann" (the captain); or "das boot" (the boat). All ranks are masculine: "der Gefreiter" (the private); der Unteroffizier" (the sergeant); "der Oberfeldwebel" (the staff sergeant); "der Oberstleutnant" (the lieutenant colonel) etc. All of them. So if you are saying "Ist der lieutnant hier?" (Is the lieutenant here?) you'd be using the masculine article because of the masculine noun even if the lieutenant is a female. Presumably if a new word like "leutnantin" is created it would be assigned a female gender so become "die leutnantin". Again, that sounds as inelegant in German as it looks to an English speaker.

As I said above; so you think you've got it rough?

;D

 

[dimsum]

If you think we've got it rough:

See article here.

This article only scratches the surface of the problem.

The example above relates to the addition of a "polite" address of an individual. For example a Captain ("Hauptmann" literally "head man") would be addressed as Herr Hauptmann (or Mister Captain) but you'll note it also includes the term "mann". So the change would probably have to delete "mann". Regardless, either option sounds as silly in German as it does in English.

There is one further problem which is that in German, every noun is either masculine, feminine or neuter which is most noticeable when the article "the" is used. In German that's "die" (f); "der" (m) or "das" . Such as in "die schule" (the schoool); "der Hauptmann" (the captain); or "das boot" (the boat). All ranks are masculine: "der Gefreiter" (the private); der Unteroffizier" (the sergeant); "der Oberfeldwebel" (the staff sergeant); "der Oberstleutnant" (the lieutenant colonel) etc. All of them. So if you are saying "Ist der lieutnant hier?" (Is the lieutenant here?) you'd be using the masculine article because of the masculine noun even if the lieutenant is a female. Presumably if a new word like "leutnantin" is created it would be assigned a female gender so become "die leutnantin". Again, that sounds as inelegant in German as it looks to an English speaker.

As I said above; so you think you've got it rough?

;D

To extend this further, if the French military decide to do this as well, will it become "Ma Capitaine" and "Ma Colonel"? 

 

[dapaterson]

To extend this further, if the French military decide to do this as well, will it become "Ma Capitaine" and "Ma Colonel"?

First things first.  "Le drapeau blanc est dans le tiroir."

 

[MilEME09]

Related, RCEME now wants to change Craftsman to be gender neutral. Cause this is what will encourage more people to join. This is only my guess, but I am betting other ranks will not be untouched either. Next up Rifleman and Guardsman to be replaced with Rifle Person.

 

[FJAG]

Related, RCEME now wants to change Craftsman to be gender neutral. Cause this is what will encourage more people to join. This is only my guess, but I am betting other ranks will not be untouched either. Next up Rifleman and Guardsman to be replaced with Rifle Person.

One might think that "Rifle Bloggins" and "Guard Bloggins" might do. On the other hand "Craftie Bloggins", not so much.

;D

 

[daftandbarmy]

Related, RCEME now wants to change Craftsman to be gender neutral. Cause this is what will encourage more people to join. This is only my guess, but I am betting other ranks will not be untouched either. Next up Rifleman and Guardsman to be replaced with Rifle Person.

Well, traditions notwithstanding, the term 'Private' is in general use already.....

 

[dimsum]

One might think that "Rifle Bloggins" and "Guard Bloggins" might do. On the other hand "Craftie Bloggins", not so much.

;D

Craftie Bloggins is probably in use in the RAEME (Aussies). 

And calling someone "Rifle" would really change the "this is my rifle, this is my gun" song from FMJ a bit...